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Offline PereJoseph

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Adolf Hitler
« Reply #105 on: April 28, 2012, 09:08:30 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Quote from: PereJoseph


    Do you understand what sanctifying grace is ?


    I do. Europeans brought Christianity to especially Africa and Latin America.


    Yes, we did, though some other Europeans from a certain island brought heresy and death.

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    You don't really know what you are talking about at all, which brings up another question.  How old are you ?


    Why I thought you said you were French?


    I am, but you are just listing off data without apparently studying it and really knowing about it.  How does what you said relate to the conversation ?  What point were you trying to make, and what point was your counterpoint meant to address ?

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    No.  Why do you ask ?


    I ask because it seems to me the only 'notable' civilizations to you are Catholic ones.


    I don't believe in terms of the Enlightenment word "civilisation," so we are clearly drawing different meanings and inferences from the conversation than one another.  I have deep respect for the natural virtues and accomplishments of many non-Catholic societies, but I do not see any intrinsic virtue in what many would consider "civilisation," which is itself an incoherent term that was especially popular in the XIXth and XXth centuries but was unknown in its modern usage before the mid-XVIIth century.  The modern usage is not Catholic and I will no go along with it.  That being said, I do admire many of the natural accomplishments and virtues found in study of the old Romans, Greeks, Chinese, Japanese, Incas, Persians, Celts, Mongolians, Egyptians, Slavs, North American Indians, Aztecs, Mayans, and various nomads ?  Do I think that certain natural accomplishments render certain of these races superiour to others ?  No.  Every race has its own qualities and customs, and every race must be brought to the Faith.  The Church will keep and nourish that which is found to be good in them and purge that which is bad.

    This seems to be a very different usage and perspective than your own.  I am not anti-European, being of mostly Indo-European myself.  All things must be judged according to how they look in light of the Logos, Our Lord Jesus Christ, however, and I still maintain that the Indian tribes had many goods that were utterly ignored so that the English heretics and their adopted brethren could conquer them -- and for what ?  What virtues do the English heretics have ?  How were the Indians bettered ?  Are they closer to God ?  Are they more naturally ordered because some of them farm now and attend public schools ?  Are they "civilised" now that they have no pride, make their money from casinos, and are fat, forsaking their old traditions ?  What does that word even mean ?

    It would have been better to make them Catholic, to marry them and bring Catholic words into their languages, to befriend them and confirm everything good in their cultures.  That is what we tried to do and, yes, we were building a European empire.  There is a noble and honourable way to prosecute such a project, however, and the people like Custer or those who are too bigoted to see any virtue in the Indians' traditions and who still want to turn them into a bunch of Northern European middle class town dwellers -- such as have only existed in large numbers in Protestant societies, mind you, since Protestantism always flourished amongst (surprise !) Germanic merchant classes -- are far from the nobility and honour of that way, and shallow besides.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #106 on: April 28, 2012, 09:12:58 PM »
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  • Quote from: Graham
    Quote from: PereJoseph
    Fair enough.  I think there is quite a bit to discuss here, and, naturally, while I think Saint Augustine is exaggerating, I agree with what it seems like he is trying to convey.  I doubt he meant his statement literally, however.


    No, I don't think he meant it literally either. To go into it further would be rather too off-topic though.


    Agreed.

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    Some seem to generally be more balanced and informed, though I wonder why, once somebody gets to this point, he continues to entangle himself in perennialist circles and language, rather than just sharing whatever legitimate insights the school of thought might have in a fully Catholic way.


    I think the short answer is cognitive dissonance. Some suffer from competing loyalties due to a misguided sense, inculcated by the foremost perennialists themselves, that Catholicism lacks a truly metaphysical character. Minor contributing issues are intellectual pride and an adolescent fascination with secret knowledge. At some point such people must ask themselves why they prefer to heed Sufi Muslims over Christian Saints.

    What the perennialists can offer us are thorough refutations of the errors of modernity in a general sense, a window to the cosmological sciences of past ages, especially of symbolism, and a signpost to the ultimate Christian doctrines of the via negativa and the indwelling presence.


    I agree with you here, too.  I have always thought the same thing about perennialists, just as you describe.  I also think it is incredibly dangerous, however, and that we should be trying to lure people away from perennialism into a fully integrated Catholicism, since perennialism has so many evil tendencies.  That is a separate discussion, too, though.


    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #107 on: April 29, 2012, 12:06:42 PM »
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  • Quote from: alaric
    Oh bullsh*t. You my friend are nothing but a German-hater, through'n"through. Spare us with your "objectivity, you revel in the fact that the German countryside was bombarded by Allied and Communist war-shells and her women were systematically raped and tormented by Red Army savage barbarians. The same barbarians that were "brainwashed" by the Judaic Bolshevism that Hitler and the NS's were trying to rid Europe of to  begin with.

    And another thing, don't forget that you frogs and your Masonic British masters started that war to begin with before the Reich kicked your collective asses back across the English Channel where you belonged.

    You like phrases so much, don't forget, the victors write the history texts.


    I believe Churchill said that quote. :laugh1: I don't know why Americans really love the 'great man.' If anything considering the buckets of champayne he drank he was the 'great drunk.' It is true that Hitler was against Bolshevism and Marxism for as he said in Mein Kampf, "The Jєωιѕн doctrine of Marxism rejects the aristocratic principle of Naure and replaces the eternal privelage of power and strength by the masses and their dead weight. Thus it denies the personality of man, questions the significance of race and nation, and thus withdraws from humanity the premise of its existence and its culture." However Hitler was also against capitalism as well, remember that Hitler said in Mein Kampf, "Just as the Jew uses capitalistic methods of human exploitation to their ultimate advantages..." He also as I said saw the British Empire as something that should survive, comparing it to the Catholic Church, a force of stablility in the world. So he respected the British even though he said Jews control England and personally despised Churchill personally. Hitler's opinion on America was also positive and negative as he praised America in Mein Kampf for segregating the 'colored peoples' and being against racial mixture but later on in the 30's and 40's saw America as a nation of just opulent capitalists, using jazz to blure racial distinctions, and said in 1942, "The American society is half-Judaized, half-Negrified, with 80% of the public purse going to public words, with values built on the Almighty Power of the dollar. How can a mongrel nation like that survive for long?" Hitler also had criticisms of the monarchy as well criticizing Kaisar Wilhelm II and his policies for starting World War I, despising the Hapsburghs, and saying in Mein Kampf, "It is thanks to the German princes that the German nation could not get rid of the Jєωιѕн menace." However Hitler did want a return of the peasant system since the Third Reich was promoting Germans returning to the farmland and shifting them to Eastern Europe.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #108 on: April 29, 2012, 12:27:53 PM »
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  • I don't believe in euthanizing retarded people but I have a question: Does anyone believe in giving their job to someone who is mentally challenged? Under affirmative action in this country that CAN happen. I know I wouldn't be willing.

    Offline Andrew

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #109 on: April 29, 2012, 02:47:14 PM »
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  • http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/  This is a good site for German propaganda, it has a wealth of info and speeches.  I really studied it a lot when I sympathized with the nαzι's, but I've since realized that it was a flawed idealogy.  WW2 was just a huge mistake in my opinion, I don't bother talking about it much anymore, it seems like alot of armchair generals seem to know what "they would have done to win WW2".


    Offline John Grace

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #110 on: April 29, 2012, 04:46:48 PM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    I don't believe in euthanizing retarded people but I have a question: Does anyone believe in giving their job to someone who is mentally challenged? Under affirmative action in this country that CAN happen. I know I wouldn't be willing.



    I have no objection to it. A few days ago, I brought books I no longer needed to a local Society of St. Vincent de Paul shop. The volunteer was "mentally challenged" to use the definition outlined above. There was other volunteers. I treated him as I would with any other person. I approached him. I told him, I wished to donate books.He took them. He thanked me.

    It would be a pity if somebody ignored him on basis of disability. I could easily have gone in with the  mindset of that "simpleton" won't understand me and could of taken the books up to the 'normal' looking woman at the desk. I didn't.

    Often visitors are surprised to see so many disabled people out and about in Ireland.Particularly those with  Down's syndrome.

    You wouldn't see this in Britain where sadly so many are murdered in abortuaries.

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #111 on: April 29, 2012, 05:34:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: John Grace
    I have no objection to it. A few days ago, I brought books I no longer needed to a local Society of St. Vincent de Paul shop. The volunteer was "mentally challenged" to use the definition outlined above. There was other volunteers. I treated him as I would with any other person. I approached him. I told him, I wished to donate books.He took them. He thanked me.

    It would be a pity if somebody ignored him on basis of disability. I could easily have gone in with the  mindset of that "simpleton" won't understand me and could of taken the books up to the 'normal' looking woman at the desk. I didn't.

    Often visitors are surprised to see so many disabled people out and about in Ireland.Particularly those with  Down's syndrome.

    You wouldn't see this in Britain where sadly so many are murdered in abortuaries.


    So you would give up your job and the money you make to that person?

    Offline clare

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #112 on: April 30, 2012, 04:26:14 AM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    So you would give up your job and the money you make to that person?


    If someone more qualified came along, would you happily give up your job and money to him?


    Offline PereJoseph

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #113 on: April 30, 2012, 05:55:41 AM »
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  • Formatting problem.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #114 on: April 30, 2012, 05:59:54 AM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    What I am trying to say is that everyone knows about the nαzι eugenics program but not too many people know of America's and Britain's and they are always the "good guys."


    Clearly, all three of them are "bad guys."

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    Actually that quote is about the German Army crossing into Poland basically meaning that since the Allies humiliated Germany to the extreme she got her revenge.


    Does this mean that you are okay with the German invasion of Poland ?

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    And I find it sick that you continue to defend rape.


    I have not once defended rape.  If you cannot understand the subtlety of the point I was making about justice and irony, thinking that therefore I endorse rape, that is your problem.  Shame on you for continuing to say that I am defending rape, though, when my words do not imply any defense.

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    That was the GREATEST war crime of World War II, done by the Allies!


    I don't buy that it was the greatest crime.  Whether or not it was done by the Axis or the Allies is irrelevant.  You seem to be under the impression that I was some supporter of the Allies; is this right ?

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    The Allied reparations and humiliating defeat on Germany made Germans seethe with anger.


    Yes, this is the history of World War II.  So what ?

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    It lead straight to the nαzι Party. France and Britain did it to themselves.


    It's a little more complicated than that, but I agree that the peace conditions imposed by the French Republic and England on the Germans was too much and that there was legitimate cause for German anger against them.  I am sure that heavy investment from US industry and finance played no small factor in the rise of the nαzι Party as well.  The legacy of XIXth-century German art, culture, and scholarship under the aegis of the Prussian state and nationalist ideology surely contributed, too.

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    By the way there's an old joke my grandfather used to say: the one military manual that tells how to lose a war is the French manual.


    :rolleyes: And have you ever heard the one about the chicken and the road ?  It's hysterical, just wait until you hear it !  ...Well, I don't want to ruin it for you.  Your joke must not take into account the fact that France's martial history tells the story of the most successful and prestigious fighting men of all time besides the armies of Genghis Khan and Subutai, Alexander the Great, and the Roman Republic.

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    It was so bad in Weimar Germany German mothers had to prostitue themselves for daily bread.


    Naturally, of course, they had to do no such thing.

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    It was not ALL of Germany's fault.


    Never claimed it was.  You seem to think this discussion is about something else :  :soapbox:.

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    Allied Powers shared the blame of the First World War.


    Sure, chiefly Woodrow Wilson I would say, since Karl von Habsburg and Benedict XV were willing to make a generous peace.

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    Uh France is coming apart from Islamic hordes so yes this is not the France of Louis XIV...


    No, it's not, but the real France -- the Eldest Daughter of the Church, Our Lady's own kingdom -- is only a sleeping giant, always on the verge of what Louis XIV almost accomplished if not for his pride (may he rest in peace).

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    But you see World War II forced France to lose her empire. She lost her vitality.


    Not really.  She could have easily maintained her colonies if not for the lack of missionary activity and the lack of moral willingness to keep them.  De Gaulle could have easily won Algeria, which was not a colony at all but an actual Republican département -- if only he had not been too willing to surrender Algeria to the Mohammedans without any serious fight, apparently in obedience to some prerogative of the globalists that he kept quiet.  It was not inevitable that the colonies were lost, but the post-war culture and the culture of the Third Republic -- that is to say, the Revolution and the Republic themselves in their essence -- sapped the spirit of the majority of the French.  It is anathema to the French character and vocation.

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    Hitler was born on Branau-on-the-Inn on the German-Austrian border and was of German ethnicity.


    Yes... Like I said, an Austrian, which is a subgroup within the German ethnicity.

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    And as I said Hitler admired the British Empire and Britain. He did NOT want a war with Britain.


    Yep, you got it. :shocked:

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    If they weren't prepared for another war perhaps they should have not declared war on the most powerful country in Europe no?


    Yes.  To hell with the French Republics -- back to where they came from.

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    I am making the argument that World War II was not worth it. All of the "blood, sweat, and tears" were not worth it. Ah but remember the words of the British propagandists: it 'twas a great victory.


    Alright.  I should probably point out, though, that that particular point is a departure from what we were talking about before.  I do have to say, though, I am happy that the Hilterian state did not survive and that we don't have to endure a Germany today with muscle like that of the Hohenstaufens.  Not that I prefer the Judaeo-Communist world order that succeeded instead, of course, but if we are only focussing on the positive aspects, I think that the German state of Hitler and as envisioned by the nαzιs would have been horrible and am glad it did not succeed.  Unfortunately, it was a war between two great evils.  Life is rough.

    Offline PereJoseph

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #115 on: April 30, 2012, 06:01:28 AM »
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  • Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    Quote from: PereJoseph


    Oh, yes, it is very liberal of me to want to suppress discussion to protect the minds of earnest young Catholics who haven't studied enough to know the difference.  :rolleyes:  

    What do you think liberalism is, and what is a liberal ?


    Well the number one attitude of a liberal is that they are very emotional and do not like dissenting views.


    The number one attitude of an Inquisitor is that they are very dispassionate and do not like dissenting views.  Are Inquisitors, therefore, half liberal ?  :scratchchin:


    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #116 on: April 30, 2012, 07:28:24 AM »
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  • Quote from: clare
    Quote from: Traditional Guy 20
    So you would give up your job and the money you make to that person?


    If someone more qualified came along, would you happily give up your job and money to him?


    It would be up to the boss. Under affirmative action a mentally challenged person or one who is physically handicapped along with minorities and women will get a job over a normal, white male.

    Offline alaric

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #117 on: May 01, 2012, 02:18:35 PM »
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  • "Ah, shoot first and ask questions later : très américain."

    Well, at least we have guts to shoot to begin with. I wonder how many fully loaded French rifles were dropped as they were high-tailing it back across the Channel with their limey Masonic British allies.

    " I can recognise a Divine punishment of the Germans by the Red Army that fits the former's sin without hating the Germans and loving the subjective mortal sins of the rapists who carried out the deed that God, in His inscrutable mercy, allowed. "

    Divine punishment? Really? And by a bunch savage commie muderers and rapists nonetheless. Thanks God, you really proved a point there. And then "God" in his divine wisdom hands half of Europe over to these same godless, communist heathens. Tell me, was that "divine punishment" for Poland too? Or the Baltic countries and Balkans? I mean, how much divine punishment did God deal out and for how long because of those mean, nasty ol German National Socialists?

    "God wants us to love His judgments and His punishments, even if we cannot understand them."

    Uhh....what? That makes no sense. If someone is punishing me, I sure would like to know damn well what I did wrong. I mean, wouldn't anybody?

    "All I said was that the punishment of the Germans by the Red Army thugs was an act of justice that was poetic, given the German fixation on racial purity.  If that causes your blood to boil and you cannot imagine somebody saying such a thing dispassionately, I cannot convince you otherwise."

    Justice? You mean raping and pillaging of women and children is now "justice"? You have a twisted idea of justice IMO, more like retribution or revenge. Sure, if you said that I could understand, not that I agree, but at least I could understand where your coming from.

    " That being said, I would be lying if I claimed that I was fond of the Germans as a people, the same with both the American and British English."


    Ahh yes, Pierre, lover of all things French and Red Russian. I tell you what,  given the chance,I'd much rather dine with Patton and Rommel than Degaulle or Zhukov, but that's just me.

    "I don't really see the benefit of using the word "barbarian."


    The way the Red Army behaved, I don't see how you could refer to them as anything different.

    Offline alaric

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #118 on: May 01, 2012, 02:50:08 PM »
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  • " The Germans may have been trying to eliminate Bolshevism and degeneracy, but they replaced it with a perversion of the natural order of their own -- the idolatrous worship of their race, even to the point of murdering children in the womb and sterilising those they believed undesirable.  They attempted, likewise, to erect an all-powerful saecular Germanic state that disrespected the sovereign prerogatives of the Pope and the ability for Catholics to worship freely and with undivided consciences (such as they have in the United States).  We should thank God that such a monster did not succeed, at least objectively; it clearly was built on many natural goods, but it twisted these natural goods and ordered them to an idolatrous service.  The alternative was worse, though of a different kind, so any direct comparison is hard to make.  Anyway, we should pray that this other monster, under which the Church and the nations currently suffer, is likewise destroyed, so that the natural and divine laws are bowed before by all."

    Well. I don't know where to start. Firstly, I don't understand about this "race worship" thing, from what I've read over the years, Hitler wanted to revive Germany as a nation, first and foremost. Germany was getting a beat down globally, especially by the banks, and basically laid to waste so the International criminals could rape her at will. Your snotty French and Brits caused all this with the Versailles Treaty and all it's disabling of the German people with all the debt and blame for a war it did not start to begin with and never really lost. The Nationalists came to power and built up  Germany as a direct result of the Western Democracies and all their meddling with the German economy and enabling their Communists nemesis, The West reaped what they sowed in Hitler and the Reich. And I don't really see where they stepped on the Pope's toes unless in involved affairs of the state, but they never closed churches or prohibited Christian worship, unlike the commies, which they effectively did in Germany after God's "divine punishment".

    Germany's motto as "DEUTSCHLAND über ALLES" was Germany above all, not lording or ruling over other races but putting the interests of their  own  people first. What a people are supposed to do if they want to survive, what all nations and races do naturally on this planet. It has nothing to do with "worshipping" themselves, that's a bunch Jєωιѕн malarky.

    ".Which is another way of saying that the Anglo-American establishment exclusively started that war in coöperation with the wishes of international Jєωιѕн finance. "


    No argument there.

    "When did the German "Reich" push the British and French across the English channel within the past one hundred years ?  Or when did any continental German power ever push us French across La Manche in any conflict ?"

    Someone needs a history lesson

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Dunkirk#Evacuation

    Offline Traditional Guy 20

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    Adolf Hitler
    « Reply #119 on: May 01, 2012, 04:12:56 PM »
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  • Quote from: PereJoseph
    Does this mean that you are okay with the German invasion of Poland?


    Well it was Poland's defiance of Hitler, because of the British war guarentee, that lead to Hitler invading Poland, since Hitler wanted an alliance with Poland and was willing to negotiate for extra territory for Poland for the taking of Danzig. It was the Allies' declaring war on Germany and the courting of Stalin that lead to Hitler to grasp the opportunity not to be dragged into a two-front war by making a treaty with Stalin.

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    I don't buy that it was the greatest crime.  Whether or not it was done by the Axis or the Allies is irrelevant.  You seem to be under the impression that I was some supporter of the Allies; is this right ?


    Uh two million Germans died from the rape and gore of the Red Army. 15 million Germans were ethnically cleansed from homelands thay had been on for many years.

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    Yes, this is the history of World War II.  So what?


    So looking back that was not a very wise decision no?

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    It's a little more complicated than that, but I agree that the peace conditions imposed by the French Republic and England on the Germans was too much and that there was legitimate cause for German anger against them.  I am sure that heavy investment from US industry and finance played no small factor in the rise of the nαzι Party as well.  The legacy of XIXth-century German art, culture, and scholarship under the aegis of the Prussian state and nationalist ideology surely contributed, too.


    There is nothing wrong with nationalism.



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    Naturally, of course, they had to do no such thing.


    Uh considering Germany was facing a depression worse than America's yes they did.



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    Yep, you got it. :shocked:


    Uh it is vey well docuмented by even British historians that Hitler wanted to see the British Empire survive. Ironically, America, Britain's ally, would help bring it down.

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    Alright.  I should probably point out, though, that that particular point is a departure from what we were talking about before.  I do have to say, though, I am happy that the Hilterian state did not survive and that we don't have to endure a Germany today with muscle like that of the Hohenstaufens.  Not that I prefer the Judaeo-Communist world order that succeeded instead, of course, but if we are only focussing on the positive aspects, I think that the German state of Hitler and as envisioned by the nαzιs would have been horrible and am glad it did not succeed.  Unfortunately, it was a war between two great evils.  Life is rough.


    Germany had always been the natural boundary to Oriental barbarism and despotism, so when the West smashed Germany it was obvious the Soviets would move in. And guess what? Those dictators of the communist countries were far more murderous than Hitler.