Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Fighting Errors in the Modern World => Topic started by: WorldsAway on August 04, 2025, 04:52:28 PM
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A baby boy born over the weekend holds the new record for the “oldest baby.” Thaddeus Daniel Pierce, who arrived on July 26, developed from [sic] an embryo that had been in storage for 30 and a half years.
Full article: https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/07/29/1120769/exclusive-record-breaking-baby-born-embryo-over-30-years-old/
(https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/07/29/1120769/exclusive-record-breaking-baby-born-embryo-over-30-years-old/)Would the more theologically inclined among us be willing to speculate on what this soul experienced as a frozen embryo for 30 years?
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Full article: https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/07/29/1120769/exclusive-record-breaking-baby-born-embryo-over-30-years-old/
(https://www.technologyreview.com/2025/07/29/1120769/exclusive-record-breaking-baby-born-embryo-over-30-years-old/)Would the more theologically inclined among us be willing to speculate on what this soul experienced as a frozen embryo for 30 years?
I could probably cause a riot in very conservative Novus Ordo circles by saying this, but there is at least some probability that the soul has not been infused yet. So far as I am aware, the Church has never traditionally pinpointed an instant at which the soul enters the body, and since we do not know, we must err on the side of caution and assume it is from the moment of conception. But being cautious and assuming are not the same thing as having absolute certitude. The most recent catechism uses the term "immediately", which some of the folks of the ilk I describe take and run with, saying "it happens immediately, the soul enters the body at the moment of conception, the Catechism says so!". But in this case, the world "immediately" (which is translated from Latin) does not mean "right that very second", it means "without the mediation of the parents, but by God alone". That's a use of the word "immediate" that is not common in English.
All of this said, the dogma of the Immaculate Conception does strongly hint that ensoulment does, in fact, take place at conception.
And if an immortal soul has been infused into this embryo that has been frozen for 30 years, then all I can say is "God's got this".
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At conception three are present. Each parent contributes from their nature and God contributes the spiritual (soul)
Was God present during the mortal sins of IVF ?
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This OP brings up some intriguing questions to say the least. How many embryos do not for whatever reason go beyond the stage of an embryo? Whatever becomes of all these embryos in the plan of God? Are these embryos actual human beings or only potentially human beings? What, if anything, does the Catholic Church hold on the matter?
I presented the following question to ChatGPT and got back the following answer:
What is your best estimate of how many embryos never go beyond the stage of embryo, but for whatever reason come to an end on a daily basis world-wide?
ChatGPT said:
Estimating how many embryos never go beyond the early stages of development and come to an end on a daily basis worldwide involves understanding the biological processes behind conception, embryo development, and pregnancy loss. There are several factors at play, including natural causes of early pregnancy loss (spontaneous miscarriage), failed implantation, and natural embryo resorption, among others. Here's how we can break it down:
1. Early Pregnancy Loss (Miscarriage)
- Miscarriage rate: It's estimated that about 15-20% of known pregnancies end in miscarriage, but the actual rate may be higher if we consider unrecognized early miscarriages (e.g., pregnancies that are lost before a woman even knows she is pregnant).
- Timing of Miscarriage: Most of these losses occur early in pregnancy, with a significant portion happening before the pregnancy is even recognized (before the missed period or around the time of implantation).
- Impact of Embryo Quality: Many embryos never implant or are spontaneously lost in the early stages due to chromosomal abnormalities or other developmental issues that prevent further growth.
2. Failed Implantation
- Implantation success rate: After fertilization, the embryo must implant into the uterine wall to establish a pregnancy. The implantation rate is estimated to be about 30-50% for a healthy embryo. This means that half or more of embryos never successfully implant and are lost at this stage.
- Embryo survival post-fertilization: Studies suggest that around 60-70% of fertilized eggs may fail to implant naturally. This includes both natural conceptions and cases where assisted reproductive technologies (like IVF) are used.
3. Natural Resorption of Embryos
- Early embryonic development: Even if an embryo implants, it can be lost during the very early stages of development (typically within the first 6-10 days post-fertilization). Natural resorption (where the body absorbs the embryo) happens when the embryo is not developing properly, often due to genetic anomalies.
- Some estimates suggest that around 50-70% of fertilized eggs may be lost in the early weeks of pregnancy, often before a woman even knows she's pregnant.
4. Global Estimates: How Many Embryos Are Lost Daily?
To give you a ballpark estimate, we can work through the following assumptions and numbers:
- Number of pregnancies worldwide: There are around 140 million births per year worldwide, which means roughly 380,000 births per day.
- Pregnancy rate: It's estimated that 50-60 million pregnancies occur annually worldwide, considering the early stages of pregnancy, including those that end in early loss. This leads to about 150,000 pregnancies per day globally.
- Early pregnancy loss/miscarriage rate: If we assume that about 50% of pregnancies are lost at some point (including before implantation and early embryonic loss), that means roughly 75,000 pregnancies end each day due to early miscarriage, failed implantation, or other forms of early loss.
- Embryos per fertilization: Each fertilization event results in one embryo, but many embryos never make it to a successful implantation or beyond the first few days of development.
Given the above, a conservative estimate might suggest that between 70,000 and 100,000 embryos worldwide do not survive past the early stages of development (i.e., never progress beyond the embryo stage, either due to failed implantation, early miscarriage, or natural resorption) on any given day. This number can fluctuate depending on the rate of conception, health conditions, and various other factors.
Considerations and Caveats
- Natural Variation: The actual number can vary greatly depending on environmental factors, maternal health, age, and other variables. For instance, the risk of miscarriage increases with maternal age, and lifestyle factors like stress, diet, or health conditions can also play a role.
- Assisted Reproductive Technologies (ART): The use of IVF and other ART methods can influence these numbers. While the embryo loss rate may be higher in IVF due to the procedures involved, ART also offers more direct observation of embryo development and loss, allowing for more precise data in certain populations.
- Unreported Losses: Many early embryonic losses (especially before implantation) are unreported because they occur before a woman even realizes she is pregnant. This makes it difficult to have a perfect estimate.
Summary Estimate
- Rough global estimate: Each day, about 70,000–100,000 embryos may fail to progress beyond the early stages of development worldwide, due to factors like failed implantation, miscarriage, or natural resorption.
It's important to note that these losses are a normal part of the reproductive process and often go unnoticed because they happen at the very beginning of pregnancy, sometimes before a woman even knows she is pregnant
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I could probably cause a riot in very conservative Novus Ordo circles by saying this, but there is at least some probability that the soul has not been infused yet. So far as I am aware, the Church has never traditionally pinpointed an instant at which the soul enters the body, and since we do not know, we must err on the side of caution and assume it is from the moment of conception.
I too wonder if the soul has been infused into an embryo.
Has the Church ever defined conception? Does it mean at the time of fertilization or at the time of implantation?
If it means at the time of fertilization, and the following is true,
- Rough global estimate: Each day, about 70,000–100,000 embryos may fail to progress beyond the early stages of development worldwide, due to factors like failed implantation, miscarriage, or natural resorption.
that would mean hundreds of millions of souls each year over centuries, never had the chance to be born. Would God really send a soul that never had a chance?
If on the other hand conception means at the time of implantation, even though things can still go wrong, at least there was a chance of birth.
In our English language when we speak of conceived we invariable mean a fetus which means it's been implanted.
The fertilized egg is like a seed. It won't grow until it's planted.
These poor frozen embryos are like seeds, it might be more merciful if they didn't have a soul yet... after all is said and done, man through, IVF, had no business constructing them in the first place.
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Would God really send [sic] a soul that never had a chance?
I think you mean "create" (ex nihilo), not "send". Preexistence of souls is a heresy.
Monsters are frequently conceived, and they must be conditionally baptized ("If you are a human, I baptize…" etc.).
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I too wonder if the soul has been infused into an embryo.
Has the Church ever defined conception? Does it mean at the time of fertilization or at the time of implantation?
If it means at the time of fertilization, and the following is true,that would mean hundreds of millions of souls each year over centuries, never had the chance to be born. Would God really send a soul that never had a chance?
If on the other hand conception means at the time of implantation, even though things can still go wrong, at least there was a chance of birth.
In our English language when we speak of conceived we invariable mean a fetus which means it's been implanted.
The fertilized egg is like a seed. It won't grow until it's planted.
These poor frozen embryos are like seeds, it might be more merciful if they didn't have a soul yet... after all is said and done, man through, IVF, had no business constructing them in the first place.
Conception is more of a scientific term than a theological one. It means fertilization, when the new and distinct life is created. There is nothing magical about implantation that makes this new life any more "human".
As to the conundrum of whether souls are infused into these very small creatures, we don't know. Aquinas would have said no, but Aquinas is not the final authority on the matter. The Church has never defined the moment at which ensoulment takes place. Again, Novus Ordo types for whom the most recent catechism is the be-all and end-all of Catholicism, and who do not understand the sense in which the word "immediately" is used in the relevant passage, will fight you tooth and toenail insisting that it means "at the moment of conception because the Catechism says so". They misunderstand the concept. (See my comments above.)
Surely Our Lord knows which of these embryos are going to be implanted and which ones are not going to be. It is not outside of His power to refrain from infusing souls into the ones that will never be implanted, but again, we just don't know.