Author Topic: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat  (Read 23418 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
« Reply #585 on: April 19, 2017, 11:25:42 PM »
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  • No flat earther (at least not me) is dismissing your work. It is very interesting and I credit you for it.
    The problem is that it does not prove or disprove the flat earth.
    .
    What I am proposing here is nothing new. There are plenty of observers for many centuries now who have been doing these things, and their observations are instructive, that is, if one bothers to pay attention.
    .
    The scientific method properly followed allows the observer to confirm or deny a hypothesis based on empirical evidence. It cannot define whether something will always be the case in the future -- such as dropping a rock and observing that it falls to the ground even 100 times, does not prove that the rock will ALWAYS fall to the ground in the future; it does, however, support the hypothesis that something must be pulling the rock to the ground.
    .
    I am suggesting that anyone who wants to learn more about the movement of the sun and moon in the sky above, and is also interested to learn what our observations from earth can tell us about the relative distance from earth to the moon compared to earth to the sun, can find out the truth about these things by watching and measuring the angle between the sun and moon during the key phases of the moon: its first and last quarter.
    .
    Today is shown on your calendar as the day of the last quarter moon, April 19th, 2017. However, most calendars do not bother to mention the precise TIME of the day when the last quarter actually was at 100%. A very convenient reference for that time is the Old Farmer's Almanac, for those living in the continental United States and Canada. (The website does not process locations for other places like Europe or South America.)
    .
    Going to the Old Farmer's Almanac website, I found that the last quarter moon took full development at 3:00 am today in my time zone, and another page of the same site has the moon rise at 1:59 am. Therefore, by looking at the moon this morning at 3:00 am (it was low in the eastern sky) I was able to see the moon at its 100% last quarter time. This was interesting for a reason I had not expected to see, which is the fact that the angle of the dividing line between light side and dark side of the moon was not what I had expected to see. This kind of thing often happens while testing a hypothesis -- you observe something surprising, just by reason of your critical attention being paid to something that you simply did not take the time to notice in the past.
    .
    At 3:00 am I could see the moon all right, but I could not yet see the sun, so I could not measure the angle between the two bodies. I had to wait until 8:00 am (5 hours later) before the sun cleared the mountains near me, and at that time I measured an angle of 91 degrees.  That was another surprise, because I had expected a lower figure. Later, at 10:00 I used a different method which I thought would be more accurate, and found the angle to be 89 degrees. Note: this was taken 7 hours AFTER the official quarter moon time in the Almanac. Since the moon's location in the sky is gradually getting closer to the sun this week, it makes sense that the angle would be smaller later in the day, but a difference of 3 degrees seems excessive. So my first measurement was probably questionable. I know this is not very scientific, but I'm using crude devices and there might be that much error in them. In any case I am very certain that the angle was not 80 degrees or 100. It was much closer to 90.
    .
    Two weeks ago when I measured the first quarter, I found the angle to be larger than 90 degrees by as much as 3 degrees. Still this is close to 90 and definitely larger than 80 and less than 100.
    .
    Therefore we are collecting readings that are very close to 90 degrees. I was hoping to have other readers mention what they have found, but no one has posted what the angle is they measured between the sun and the moon.
    .
    Once someone else posts then we can go on to the next phase. But not having any participation makes it kind of pointless to proceed. 
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    Offline wilders

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #586 on: April 20, 2017, 03:30:41 AM »
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  • Neil,
    We would have an incentive to participate if you could tell us where this is going. MW participated in your experiment, but when she asked where this was all going, you just ignored her.
    Not very honest really of you.


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #587 on: April 20, 2017, 05:52:47 PM »
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  • Neil,
    We would have an incentive to participate if you could tell us where this is going. MW participated in your experiment, but when she asked where this was all going, you just ignored her.
    Not very honest really of you.
    .
    "MW" never replied with her measurement. Did she tell you what it was? If not, then how exactly did she "participate?" 
    .
    I said we could go to the next step once you supply your observed angle. But if you don't supply it then you can go watch the video I posted -- probably for the first time! You see, when you behave in a suspicious way you ruin it for everyone who identifies with you. I have tried to carry on conversations with flat-earthers before and they accuse me of not watching the videos they post, but that's false because I DID watch their videos. I just came to different conclusions they did because with my practical experience in surveying, engineering, navigation, mathematics, compass map corrections, etc., I could see where the false premises crept into the videos and consequently I could identify where their erroneous conclusions came from. But the flat-earthers won't listen to experience. They presume that since their silly falsified videos convinced THEM, that they should also convince everyone else.
    .
    BUT THEN, when I post videos, the flat-earthers claim to have seen them. Okay, so if you have seen my videos I posted, you would know how to use a sextant, for example. Oh, sorry, you don't know how to use a sextant, do you, so then you have not watched my videos. Or, for example (getting back to the topic here) you would know exactly where this measuring of the sun and moon's angle is headed because one of my videos explained the whole thing. But now, why would no flat-earther be able to say he understands what I am doing, even while they all claim to have watched the videos I post?! 
    .
    Oh, there is one other type, like happenby, who is not ashamed to admit that she wants no part of watching my videos because they're all nonsense. She knows everything, you see.
    .
    It's a simple matter of following the steps, but flat-earthers are well-known for not following direction. They see where they are headed and then they want to change the ground rules, so they can make a left turn before they get to the inevitable end of the block. That is the same pattern of behavior that atheists and agnostics use in regards to religion, by the way.
    .
    If you refuse to measure the moon-sun angle and you can't bother to watch the video that explains it, then try this alternative method:
    .
    Here is another method of doing almost the same thing, using measurements from the Old Farmer's Almanac. But I won't at all be surprised if some flat-earther chimes in accusing the Almanac of being witchcraft or made up by Freemasons. They've already accused Pythagoras of devil worship because of his discovery of the proportions of a right triangle (sum of squares of two legs equals square of hypotenuse). Apparently any scientific discovery that detracts from the "flat" earth agenda must be equivalent to devil worship, okay?

    Anyway, here it is -- an alternative to measuring the angle of the sun and moon

    If you observe the sunrise and sunset times for the past 4 days, you find that (in Daylight Saving time zones) the mid-point, or "high noon" time is 12:51 pm. (I expect that means if you are in a Standard Time zone, it would be 11:51 am, but that's kind of beside the point.) This means that there are the same number of minutes from sunrise to this mid-point time as there are from the mid-point time to sunset. You have to calculate this mid-point time, because it is not provided in the charts.
    .
    Therefore, I have a question for anyone who has bothered to read this far:
    .
    When, by the positions of the sun and moon, or at what TIME would we expect to find the last quarter moon setting in the west on the day that it turns into a quarter moon? This time, the zero hour was 3:00 am and that is 9:51 hrs. before the sun's mid-point time (12:51). 
    .
    If you are basing your reasoning on a "flat" earth model, you're going to be obliged to explain how you get your times, because I have yet to see anyone describe the exact time that the moon is supposed to set or the sun is supposed to rise using a "flat" earth model. 
    .
    Even so, we can look in the sky, see the moon and the sun, check our watch, and measure the angle between the two bodies and observe the rotational position of the waning quarter moon at different points as it traverses the sky. By comparing what we see in consecutive days, we find that the scene changes very gradually, but it also changes INEXORABLY, such that there is absolutely NOTHING that any man on earth can do to change the timing of these heavenly bodies.
    .
    This fact is going to come to a climax of sorts in August when a Total Solar Eclipse traverses the contiguous US from Newport/Salem, Oregon to Columbia/Charleston, South Carolina, narrowly glancing by St. Louis, Missouri and Nashville, Tennessee on the way, and there is absolutely NOTHING anyone can do about it.
    .
    And, again, as we might expect, there is no flat-earther on this (flat?) earth who can describe a comprehensible method of predicting this or any other total solar eclipse, NOR can they explain what an eclipse of the sun IS, NOR can they pronounce its efficient cause, NOR can they convincingly describe the reason for its existence.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #588 on: April 20, 2017, 06:56:29 PM »
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  • .
    I forgot to mention that the mid-point time of the sun's daily journey across the sky is quickly found by taking the "Day Length" time for a given day and divide by two, then add those hours and minutes to the sunrise time for that day (for the "first figure"). If you want to check if you've done the math right, subtract the same half day length time from the sunset time and the difference should be the same as your first figure.
    .
    This mid-point time or "high noon" time is an astronomical quantity that is not necessarily the same as clock time (noon would be 12:00 pm Standard Time or one might think it's 1:00 pm if using Daylight Saving Time but we call 12:00 pm DST noon just to avoid confusing people apparently). In fact the Old Farmer's Almanac provides a column for "SUN FAST/SLOW" which is described in their Table of Contents as: 
    .
              "A sundial reads natural time or "Sun time" which is neither Standard 
              nor Daylight Time except by coincidence.  Subtract or add the minutes 
              given in the Sun Fast/Slow column from/to sundial time to get clock time." 
    .
    The method I described in the post above uses this sundial time, or natural time, as if we had a very accurate sundial that we want to be reading 12:00 high noon, because we want to pinpoint the moment when the sun is directly overhead from our typical position on the earth, which is approximated in the charts by our local time zone. This is to anticipate the moment that we would expect to see the sun at natural high noon while the moon is setting in the west on the day when its setting is closest to the hour and minute of its 100% last quarter, as listed in the Almanac (see above). 
    .
    And the question, again, for flat-earthers is, "How do you determine in advance the time or place of the sun and moon when the moon sets on the day closest to its last quarter, and how do you explain your reasoning using a 'flat-earth' model?" 
    .
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    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #589 on: April 20, 2017, 10:10:13 PM »
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  • A lot of :cussing: without the usual input from flat earthers.  


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #590 on: April 20, 2017, 11:09:26 PM »
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  • .
    As usual, nothing constructive to offer? 
    .
    Here is another one of your faves, but this one's not CGI. 
    The topic here is the shadow south of the Aleutian Islands, called "in eclipse."
    The eclipse shadow is shown as it was photographed so you can see what it looked like.
    Of course, flat-earthers are most welcome to whine and moan about how fake it all is:
    .

    Quote


    May 2012 solar eclipse

    Credit: NASA/LRO


    An image of the May 2012 solar eclipse captured by NASA’s Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter Camera. The Moon’s shadow is seen passing over the Aleutian Islands. Annotated NAC Image E192199689L. Credit: NASA/GSFC/Arizona State University.


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    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #591 on: April 21, 2017, 01:41:42 AM »
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  • The globe above is CGI.  All NASA photos are admittedly, by NASA, composites images.  They can't take a picture of the earth with a camera and must use ribbons of imagery and other manipulations according to them.  You can see the funny shading, the hotspot from lighting in the center as well as the weird sheen. In no way is it a photo of earth.    

    Offline happenby

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #592 on: April 21, 2017, 01:50:35 AM »
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  • With scripture describing a celestial firmament which is fastened to the earth like a block, where is that dome on the "globe"? How does a dome fit over a globe? Where is the water above the dome?  How can the sun be 93,000,000 miles away and still be housed under the dome?  Globers have so much to answer before drilling out a bunch of mumbo jumbo while they hide behind in relativity, imprecision and hooey, talking about how curve is level and level is curve and water is sticky.   :facepalm:  


    Offline SVincentL

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #593 on: April 21, 2017, 08:32:38 AM »
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  • I have not posted on Cathinfo in quite some time. There always seems to be something better to do. I must confess I do read many of the posts from time to time in the morning. I am a 58 year old man with 9 kids and 20 grandkids; I'm not a physicist or an astronomer. I am a simple businessman who is a cradle Catholic and a sedevacantist for the past 30 years. There is no desire on my part to get in on the technical argument that has evolved here, it reminds me of feenyite arguments way too much, but I admit that it fascinates me to read this elongated discussion. 
    Please excuse my drivel; my question is a simple one, I think. I have a childhood chum who flew in the Navy for 12 years and whose father was also a Navy pilot and lifelong pilot for Delta. In the late 80's before the death of his father, they completed a dream they both had. They flew from New Orleans , going east, to London. From there they flew to Germany where they both had friends. Then they flew directly, I do not know the exact route, to Japan and on the Hawaii where again, they both had military friends. They spent a week there then flew to California and back home to New Orleans. A veritable trip around the world. My question is this (remember from a non scientist) if the earth is indeed flat,, how did they fly only east and get back to the exact place from where they departed. Again, I apologize for the seemingly simpleness of this question, I am only curious. I am sure the answer to this is equally as simple. Thanks in advance for the response.

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #594 on: April 22, 2017, 01:02:40 AM »
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  • I have not posted on Cathinfo in quite some time. There always seems to be something better to do. I must confess I do read many of the posts from time to time in the morning. I am a 58 year old man with 9 kids and 20 grandkids; I'm not a physicist or an astronomer. I am a simple businessman who is a cradle Catholic and a sedevacantist for the past 30 years. There is no desire on my part to get in on the technical argument that has evolved here, it reminds me of feenyite arguments way too much, but I admit that it fascinates me to read this elongated discussion.

    Please excuse my drivel; my question is a simple one, I think. I have a childhood chum who flew in the Navy for 12 years and whose father was also a Navy pilot and lifelong pilot for Delta. In the late 80's before the death of his father, they completed a dream they both had. They flew from New Orleans , going east, to London. From there they flew to Germany where they both had friends. Then they flew directly, I do not know the exact route, to Japan and on the Hawaii where again, they both had military friends. They spent a week there then flew to California and back home to New Orleans. A veritable trip around the world.

    My question is this (remember from a non-scientist) if the earth is indeed flat, how did they fly only east and get back to the exact place from where they departed?

    Again, I apologize for the seemingly simpleness of this question, I am only curious. I am sure the answer to this is equally as simple. Thanks in advance for the response.
    .
    The nice thing about fulfilling a lifelong dream is, it's a memory no one can ever take away from you.
    .
    You'll have to wait for the flat-earthers to answer your question about flying east. In the past they've said there is no such thing as "east," or that "east and west" are conspiracies by Freemasons. Then other times they've said that east is a relative entity and it changes direction based on your point of reference. And yet at other times they've said that it's all due to perspective. (Does that mean everyone has a different way of looking at the same thing, like the Opinion section of the newspaper?)
    .
    In any event, if it's not too much trouble, perhaps you could ask your childhood chum the following: Does he have to change his course bearing constantly when flying east or west directly over the equator? 
    .
    Flat-earthers are wont to say that pilots and navigators have to constantly turn their aircraft either right or left, in order to remain exactly above the equator.
    .
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    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #595 on: April 22, 2017, 01:14:06 AM »
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  • With scripture describing a celestial firmament which is fastened to the earth like a block, where is that dome on the "globe"? How does a dome fit over a globe? Where is the water above the dome?  How can the sun be 93,000,000 miles away and still be housed under the dome?  Globers have so much to answer before drilling out a bunch of mumbo jumbo while they hide behind in relativity, imprecision and hooey, talking about how curve is level and level is curve and water is sticky.  
    .
    Following are my answers to your questions  (Lest you come back whining that I ignored you)
    .
    Where is that dome on the globe? 
    That dome is not a sheet of glass or stone but a transition zone between lower atmosphere and upper atmosphere. Its location is wherever God wants it to be at a given time. It is not something that man can reach out and touch.
    .
    How does a dome fit over a globe?
    The dome completely encircles the globe. Remember, the Bible doesn't say anything about where to find the beginning or end of the dome.
    .
    Where is the water above the dome?
    The water is retained as water vapor in the higher atmosphere, wherever God would have it located. In recent years, man has attempted to tamper with weather patterns because man likes to play God. But God is still in control.
    .
    How can the sun be 93,000,000 miles away and still be housed under the dome? 
    Who said the sun must be housed under the dome? Are you just making that up with your "perspective" again?
    .
    Now how about you exchange the favor and answer my questions, which you have ignored.
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    Offline wilders

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #596 on: April 22, 2017, 05:15:47 AM »
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  • Neil,
    you still have not answered the question. In spite of that incredibly long post.

    Offline wilders

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #597 on: April 22, 2017, 05:17:53 AM »
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  • I have not posted on Cathinfo in quite some time. There always seems to be something better to do. I must confess I do read many of the posts from time to time in the morning. I am a 58 year old man with 9 kids and 20 grandkids; I'm not a physicist or an astronomer. I am a simple businessman who is a cradle Catholic and a sedevacantist for the past 30 years. There is no desire on my part to get in on the technical argument that has evolved here, it reminds me of feenyite arguments way too much, but I admit that it fascinates me to read this elongated discussion.
    Please excuse my drivel; my question is a simple one, I think. I have a childhood chum who flew in the Navy for 12 years and whose father was also a Navy pilot and lifelong pilot for Delta. In the late 80's before the death of his father, they completed a dream they both had. They flew from New Orleans , going east, to London. From there they flew to Germany where they both had friends. Then they flew directly, I do not know the exact route, to Japan and on the Hawaii where again, they both had military friends. They spent a week there then flew to California and back home to New Orleans. A veritable trip around the world. My question is this (remember from a non scientist) if the earth is indeed flat,, how did they fly only east and get back to the exact place from where they departed. Again, I apologize for the seemingly simpleness of this question, I am only curious. I am sure the answer to this is equally as simple. Thanks in advance for the response.
    Sir,
    There is a presumption on your part that going from point to point in certain directions can only work on a ball.
    Why is that? Simply look at a flat earth map, and you will see that the route you describe can be done on a flat earth. They admit to not flying over the north pole because they say it is "too cold".

    Offline SVincentL

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #598 on: April 22, 2017, 09:46:05 AM »
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  • Well I suppose it is a presumption, but it is based on simple observation, I believe. It just seems that if you travel east, going one direction, and you are on a limited by distance flat plane at some point in time you would reach the edge. At that point if you kept flying east you would no longer be over the plane but in this particular case you would end up in space. However if you are travelling over a globe and follow the curvature with a consistent altitude, you would at some point be back at the original point of departure. I can take a basketball and hover a marble 2 inches from the surface and travel around the ball at 2 inches in a complete circle and end right back at the point I began. I realize that is a childish experiment but it seems to work. I can also take a plate and hover the same marble and move it in one direction only and in short order I am no longer over the plate and unless I turn it and go back in the opposite direction I will never be over the plate again. 

    I apologize for the simpleness of this thought, but I do believe it is a valid example, minus any mathematics , physics or whistles and bells. 

    Neil I will try and get in touch with my friend and ask him the question you posed. Thanks for the responses. 

    Offline TomGubbinsKimmage

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    Re: 50 Plus Reasons The Earth Is Not Flat
    « Reply #599 on: April 22, 2017, 09:57:01 AM »
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  • Flights go from point to point.

    Just like in a car, pilots are constantly "redirecting" their plane. Meaning they are steering it.

    If you're interested in flights, there is a good post on the flat earth forum on this topic. It doesn't "prove" the flat earth, but ought to get you thinking.

    http://flatearthtrads.forumga.net/t97-flights-from-nz-to-a-america

     

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