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Author Topic: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini  (Read 2847 times)

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Offline StLouisIX

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"Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
« on: December 19, 2021, 04:53:24 PM »
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  • A fascinating article from Mussolini that I find surprisingly inspirational in this time of worldwide anti-Catholic persecution. More primary source docuмents concerning Italian Fascism can be found on the website where I found this article: http://bibliotecafascista.blogspot.com/.

    Whatever you may think of this author (I personally admire the man), his article on the subject makes for far better Sunday reading than anything written in a Newchurch encyclical concerning this topic. 



    Church and State

    (Published in Il Popolo d'Italia, December 2, 1934)

    By Benito Mussolini

    The whole history of Western civilization, from the Roman Empire to modern times, from Diocletian to Bismarck, teaches us that when the State undertakes a fight against a religion, it is the State that will lose in the end. A fight against religion is a fight against the impalpable and the intangible; it is open warfare against the spirit in its most profound and most significant form, and it is by this time fully proven that the weapons at the disposal of the State, no matter how sharp they may be, are powerless to inflict any mortal blows on the Church — and by the Church I mean especially the Catholic Church — which always emerges triumphant after engaging in the most bitter conflicts.

    A State can only be victorious in a fight against another State. It can then cement its victory, for example, by imposing a change of regime, a territorial cession, a payment of indemnity, the disarming of the army, or a determined system of political or economic alliances. When fighting against a State, the State is confronted with a material reality that can be seized, struck, mutilated, transformed; but when fighting against a religion it is impossible to locate a particular target: passive resistance on the part of the priests or the faithful is enough to frustrate the most violent attacks by a State. Bismarck, in the eight years of his Kulturkampf, unhappy with the dogma of papal infallibility in religious matters, arrested dozens of bishops, closed hundreds of churches, dissolved many Catholic organizations, and even sequestered their funds; "Away from Rome!" and the outcome of this persecution was that one hundred Catholic deputies won seats in the Reichstag, the figure of Windthorst became popularized throughout the world and the moral resistance of the German Catholic world was put on display. In the end Bismarck, the founder of the German Empire, capitulated before Leo XIII, calling him the arbiter of an international dispute and writing him a letter that began with word "Sire". Equally unfortunate was the policy of Napoleon I toward the Church. One of the most serious errors of the great Corsican was that he wished to brutalize two popes and the Vatican.

    In the Fascist conception of the totalitarian State, religion is absolutely free and independent in its own sphere. The crazy idea of founding a new religion of the State or of subordinating to the State the religion professed by all Italians has never entered our minds. The duty of the State does not consist in trying to create a new gospel or other dogmas, nor in overthrowing old gods in order to replace them with others called blood, race, nordicism, and the like. The Fascist State does not consider that its duty requires it to intervene in religious matters, and if does happen, then it is only when religion touches on the political or moral order of the State. In modern times and in the countries of white civilization, the State can only assume one of two logical attitudes towards the established Churches: either ignore them, while tolerating all, as happens in the United States; or form a relationship with the Church, through a system of agreements or concordats, which has been done very successfully in Italy. The history of relations between Church and State in Italy from 1870 to 1929 is especially indicative. The Italian State approved the so-called Law of Guarantees, which was never accepted by the Pope. The Italian State adopted a policy of ignoring the Catholic Church. The famous formula of Cavour ("free Church in a free State") was insufficient for a Catholic country like Italy, which also has the privilege of being the seat of a religion with four hundred million adherents in all parts of the world. Cavour's formula was succeeded by the geometric formula of Giolitti, who defined the State and the Church as two never-meeting parallel lines. The so-called Leftist parties began to specialize in demagogic and vulgar acts of anti-clericalism, which brutally penetrated some urban areas, but such propaganda did not effect the great masses of Catholics. It was truly an untenable situation, but despite the separation there were still unofficial contacts between the Quirinal and the Vatican, imposed by the necessities of common life in certain circuмstances, such as, for example, the meeting of the cardinals for the succession of the Throne.

    In 1929 all of this came to an end with the signing of the Lateran Treaty and the Concordat, which settled the relations between the State and the Holy See, sufficiently and definitively resolving the Roman Question. Six years have passed since February 11, 1929. In the aftermath of the agreements there was no shortage of skepticism by some people. Such skepticism came to a head in 1931, when the agreements were subjected to the wear and tear of a conflict pertaining to the issue of educating the youth. The conflict had several phases, some of them very sharp and lasted several months. But by early September we came to a mutual agreement that satisfied both parties. The dispute may be regarded as the "trial by fire" for the Lateran Pacts. Since then there have been no disturbances; civil and religious peace has been enjoyed by the Italian people. Moreover, a friendly cooperation has developed between the two powers, which both care about the same object: the people. Fascist doctrine is clear on the matter: the State is sovereign and nothing can be outside or against the State, not even religion in its outward expressions and practices, and this is why the Italian bishops take an oath of allegiance to the State; on the other hand, the Church is sovereign in its specific field of activity: the care and salvation of souls. There are moments and activities where the two forces meet. In such cases collaboration is desirable; it is possible and it is productive. How grotesque would it be if a council of cardinals busied itself with the caliber of cannons or the tonnage of cruisers! It would be just as ridiculous if a ministerial cabinet decided to legislate in matters of theology or religious dogma. A State that does not wish to spread spiritual disturbance and create division among its citizens must guard against intervention in matters which are strictly religious. What happened in recent times in Germany is proof positive of the good wisdom of Fascist doctrine and practices. No State is more totalitarian and authoritarian than the Fascist State. No State is more jealous of its sovereignty and its prestige, and precisely for that reason the Fascist State does not feel the need to interfere in matters which are outside its competence and extraneous to its nature. All those who have traveled down this road have, sooner or later, been forced to recognize their error.


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #1 on: December 19, 2021, 05:28:08 PM »
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  • Good article. Honestly, this fits in with my view that what is called "Fascism" is merely the traditional order of State governance reacting to modernity. In the article, Mussolini even outlines the proper order of the State with Religion:


    Quote
    The Fascist State does not consider that its duty requires it to intervene in religious matters, and if does happen, then it is only when religion touches on the political or moral order of the State.
    Is this not the order that there was in Christendom? The Church would only step in to guide the moral order of the State.


    As a side note, a Catholic mystic lay woman named  Edvige Carboni said that Mussolini went through Purgatory and is now in Heaven. I'm not saying it's true, but, it's worth noting.

    https://gloria.tv/post/JnGGTMcAdt8U1UWtocbnkCHAN

    It's also remarkable that most of the prominent fascists of the time were Catholics (lapsed or practicing): Mussolini, Hitler, Franco, and Dollfuss. With Romanian Codreanu being Orthodox.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline FiannFdla

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #2 on: December 19, 2021, 05:30:40 PM »
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  • I certainly admire Mussolini and would be a keen proponent of fascism as being most conducive to facilitating a Catholic integralist society.

    But the below is a bit relativistic in the sense that it does not distinguish between true and false religion, with the implication that the State should facilitate the in-situ "national" religion, whether the masses subscribe to Catholicism or Protestantism. Reading this it gives the impression that the Italian Fascist state supported the Catholic religion because it was the creed of the masses, and not the Truth per se. Not to say that this is what Mussolini believed himself personally, but this piece can be seen to promote such a policy.

    Offline FiannFdla

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #3 on: December 19, 2021, 05:32:23 PM »
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  • Good article. Honestly, this fits in with my view that what is called "Fascism" is merely the traditional order of State governance reacting to modernity. In the article, Mussolini even outlines the proper order of the State with Religion:

    Is this not the order that there was in Christendom? The Church would only step in to guide the moral order of the State.


    As a side note, a Catholic mystic lay woman named  Edvige Carboni said that Mussolini went through Purgatory and is now in Heaven. I'm not saying it's true, but, it's worth noting.

    https://gloria.tv/post/JnGGTMcAdt8U1UWtocbnkCHAN
    I also recall Padre Pio reassuring a family member of Mussolini's that she need not worry about his salvation.

    Offline Dionysus

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #4 on: December 19, 2021, 05:34:09 PM »
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  • Excellent.

    I would like to add some quotes from Julius Evola on the topic of Fascism.



    “About the principle of representation and the concept of a parliament, today we have grown accustomed to associating them exclusively with the system of absolute democracy, based on universal suffrage and the principle of one man, one vote. This basis is absurd and indicates more than anything else the individualism that, combined with the pure criterion of quantity and of number, defines modern democracy. We say individualism in the bad sense, because here we are dealing with the individual as an abstract, atomistic and statistical unity, not as a ‘person’, because the quality of a person — that is, a being that has a specific dignity, a unique quality and differentiated traits—is obviously negated and offended in a system in which one vote is the equal of any other, in which the vote of a great thinker, a prince of the Church, an eminent jurist or sociologist, the commander of an army, and so on has the same weight, measured by counting votes, as the vote of an illiterate butcher’s boy, a halfwit, or the ordinary man in the street who allows himself to be influenced in public meetings, or who votes for whoever pays him. The fact that we can talk about ‘progress’ in reference to a society where we have reached the level of considering all this as normal is one of the many absurdities that, perhaps, in better times will be the cause of amazement or amusement…

    The defence of the principle of true justice will entail denouncing what is today continually promoted as ‘social justice’, a justice that serves only the lowest classes of society (the so-called ‘working classes’) and works to the detriment of other classes, effectively leading to injustice. The true state will also be hierarchical, especially because it will be able to acknowledge and create respect for the hierarchy of true values, giving primacy to values of a higher order, not material or utilitarian ones, and admitting relevant, legitimate inequalities or differences of social positions, opportunities and dignity. The true state will reject as aberrant the formula of the state of labour, whether or not this state is presented as ‘national’...



    It is also an absolute mistake to believe that the State can be anything other than a civitas diaboli if it does not resurrect itself as Imperium, and it is also a mistake to want to build the Imperium on the basis of economic, military, industrial or even 'intellectual' or nationalist factors. The Imperium, according to the primordial conception rooted in Tradition, is something transcendent, and it can only be attained by those who have the power to transcend the lives of petty men and their appetites, their sentimentalisms, their national prides, their 'values', and their phobias.”


    Quote
    People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.
    Blaise Pascal, De l'art de persuader


    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #5 on: December 19, 2021, 05:35:41 PM »
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  • I also recall Padre Pio reassuring a family member of Mussolini's that she need not worry about his salvation.
    That's certainly interesting. Any idea where that was stated?
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Dionysus

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #6 on: December 19, 2021, 05:38:07 PM »
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  • Mussolini 1924 letter to St Padre Pio:

    "Dear and beloved Brother,
    I testify of your love for the truth:
    1-It has brought me back to God!
    2-Your faith is my object of my preparation for reconciliation.
    From fascist to fascist.
    Believe me yours,
    Mussolini"

    http://www.ilgiornaleditalia.org/news/la-nostra-storia/874137/Padre-Pio-e-Mussolini.html

    Quote
    People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.
    Blaise Pascal, De l'art de persuader

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #7 on: December 19, 2021, 05:39:27 PM »
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  • Mussolini 1924 letter to St Padre Pio:

    "Dear and beloved Brother,
    I testify of your love for the truth:
    1-It has brought me back to God!
    2-Your faith is my object of my preparation for reconciliation.
    From fascist to fascist.
    Believe me yours,
    Mussolini"

    http://www.ilgiornaleditalia.org/news/la-nostra-storia/874137/Padre-Pio-e-Mussolini.html
    Magnificent. Saint Mussolini pray for us!
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline Dionysus

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #8 on: December 19, 2021, 05:41:36 PM »
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  • Blessed mystic stigmatic Mother Speranza:

    "I saw Mussolini's soul sparkling in Heaven"

    In 1961, Blessed mystic stigmatic Sister Elena Aiello had a vision of Benito Mussolini who tells her he had saved his soul.

    –"Donna Rachele. Con il Duce, oltre il Duce", Elena Bianchini (p. 300)

    Elena Aiello had already sent a letter to il Duce after a vision she had where Jesus said:

    1 "I sent Mussolini to save Italy. Otherwise they would be worse off than [Communist] Russia"

    2 "I protected him from many dangers. He must keep Italy out of war"

    http://gesu.altervista.org/index.php?sez=suor-elena-aiello-benito-mussolini#

    Quote
    People almost invariably arrive at their beliefs not on the basis of proof but on the basis of what they find attractive.
    Blaise Pascal, De l'art de persuader

    Offline FiannFdla

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #9 on: December 19, 2021, 05:46:52 PM »
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  • That's certainly interesting. Any idea where that was stated?
    I remember coming across it in this Telegram channel Rights and Duties. It's deleted now unfortunately.

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #10 on: December 19, 2021, 05:50:30 PM »
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  • But the below is a bit relativistic in the sense that it does not distinguish between true and false religion, with the implication that the State should facilitate the in-situ "national" religion, whether the masses subscribe to Catholicism or Protestantism. 
    Yes, I picked up on that as well, but it is much more properly ordered than the atheistic separation of Church and State which is widespread today.
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]


    Offline StLouisIX

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #11 on: December 19, 2021, 05:57:11 PM »
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  • I certainly admire Mussolini and would be a keen proponent of fascism as being most conducive to facilitating a Catholic integralist society.

    But the below is a bit relativistic in the sense that it does not distinguish between true and false religion, with the implication that the State should facilitate the in-situ "national" religion, whether the masses subscribe to Catholicism or Protestantism. Reading this it gives the impression that the Italian Fascist state supported the Catholic religion because it was the creed of the masses, and not the Truth per se. Not to say that this is what Mussolini believed himself personally, but this piece can be seen to promote such a policy.

    You could look at it like that, but I think it is important to note that the term “religion” has even been used by eminent Catholic writers with the implication that the word itself refers to the true religion. 

    For example, an excerpt from Fr. Michael Müller’s Prayer: The Key to Salvation:  

    Quote
    It is, indeed, only too true that we live in a most anti-Christian age; principles are disregarded, and iniquity is held in veneration; we see nothing but confusion in religion, in government, in the family circle. Sects spring up and swarm like locusts, destroying not only revealed religion, but rejecting even the law of nature…Children are allowed to grow up in ignorance of true religious principles; their fathers being without religion, or given up to the most detestable vices, or their mothers destitute of virtue, and infected in the highest degree with the spirit of vanity, the natural consequence is, that these children are regardless of their parents. 

    (pgs 55-56) 

    I think it was in this sense that Mussolini used the term “religion”, as using it in this way would definitely not have been uncommon among the Catholics of his time. 

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #12 on: December 19, 2021, 06:00:04 PM »
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  • A little relevant tangent, but there's an online test to show how Fascist your tendencies are. I got an 81% :laugh1:

    https://www.idrlabs.com/fascist-elements/test.php
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]

    Offline Romulus

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #13 on: December 19, 2021, 06:03:34 PM »
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  • A little relevant tangent, but there's an online test to show how Fascist your tendencies are. I got an 81% :laugh1:
    Do you view that as a good thing?

    Offline DigitalLogos

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    Re: "Church and State" by Benito Mussolini
    « Reply #14 on: December 19, 2021, 06:04:53 PM »
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  • Do you view that as a good thing?
    Should I not? I think my statements here and elsewhere have been pretty much in favor of Fascism over Western Democracy
    "Be not therefore solicitous for tomorrow; for the morrow will be solicitous for itself. Sufficient for the day is the evil thereof." [Matt. 6:34]

    "In all thy works remember thy last end, and thou shalt never sin." [Ecclus. 7:40]

    "A holy man continueth in wisdom as the sun: but a fool is changed as the moon." [Ecclus. 27:12]