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Poll

What is your traditionalist position?

Sedevacantist
41 (50%)
Resistance
13 (15.9%)
SSPX
21 (25.6%)
Indult
6 (7.3%)
Novus Ordo
1 (1.2%)

Total Members Voted: 79

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Author Topic: Your Traditionalist Position  (Read 22599 times)

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Online Stubborn

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Re: Your Traditionalist Position
« Reply #105 on: September 17, 2024, 12:45:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: TuAmigo on September 17, 2024, 11:45:02 AM
    Stubborn, thank you for helping me better understand your position.

    Let's put aside the Novus Ordo position for a moment and only focus on the Traditionalist positions.  Would you agree everyone should accept your Traditionalist position and all other Traditionalist positions are incorrect and schismatic because they are led by misguided/false pastors? Would this also mean that other Traditionalists are outside the church and going to hell?
    No. Like me, other traditionalists are striving to do God's holy will too - "he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." This is what matters, but I would never say any trad is incorrect or schismatic because they don't take my exact position.

    I don't think much about it, but I don't think other trads who follow false pastors are necessarily or automatically outside of the Church. 
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #106 on: September 17, 2024, 01:49:42 PM »
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    • Quote from: TuAmigo on September 16, 2024, 03:14:15 PM
    Stubborn & Marulus Fidelis, thank you for your responses!

    Another concern of mine is the fact there are different Traditionalist positions with the main thing in common being the rejection of "the Vatican II sect".  How would we respond to the criticism that this is similar to the Protestant Reformers who had a common enemy, but couldn't agree amongst themselves and ended up creating various new churches based on their own interpretations?  Are the differences between Traditionalist positions not grave, which would lead to a schism between Traditionalist positions?

    How does our current situation centered around Vatican II relate to previous schisms that also involved differing interpretations of faith and authority, like the Great Schism, the Jansenist Schism, the Old Catholic Schism, etc.?

    Thank you for your help!

    Do you yourself believe that traditionalists are schismatic? Or perhaps you believe that certain traditionalists are schismatic? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline JCRev2033

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #107 on: September 18, 2024, 09:51:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 17, 2024, 12:45:52 PM
    No. Like me, other traditionalists are striving to do God's holy will too - "he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." This is what matters, but I would never say any trad is incorrect or schismatic because they don't take my exact position.

    I don't think much about it, but I don't think other trads who follow false pastors are necessarily or automatically outside of the Church.
    What do you mean by other trads who follow false pastors, Stubborn? Are you thinking e.g. of sedevacantists following e.g. Fr. Cekada (rest in peace), or of indult catholics following e.g. Fr. Ripperger? In what sense are they false pastors, as you claim?
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #108 on: September 18, 2024, 10:03:42 AM »
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    • Quote from: JCRev2033 on September 18, 2024, 09:51:08 AM
    What do you mean by other trads who follow false pastors, Stubborn? Are you thinking e.g. of sedevacantists following e.g. Fr. Cekada (rest in peace), or of indult catholics following e.g. Fr. Ripperger? In what sense are they false pastors, as you claim?
    Like I said, I don't give it much if any thought, but the likes of Francis Schuckardt and "pope" Michael comes immediately to mind.

    Were their followers automatically outside of the Church? I think so but at the same time I understand that in the scheme of things, what I think doesn't mean a thing to anyone, even me. Hence, why I don't think much about it.
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline JCRev2033

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #109 on: September 18, 2024, 10:08:21 AM »
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    • ok
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    Offline TuAmigo

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #110 on: September 18, 2024, 04:21:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 17, 2024, 12:45:52 PM
    No. Like me, other traditionalists are striving to do God's holy will too - "he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven." This is what matters, but I would never say any trad is incorrect or schismatic because they don't take my exact position.

    I don't think much about it, but I don't think other trads who follow false pastors are necessarily or automatically outside of the Church.
    I would argue that most faithful Novus Ordo Catholics would say they are striving to do God's Holy Will, too.
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    Offline TuAmigo

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #111 on: September 18, 2024, 04:23:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 17, 2024, 01:49:42 PM
    Do you yourself believe that traditionalists are schismatic? Or perhaps you believe that certain traditionalists are schismatic?
    Hi Meg. No to both mainly due to not having a good grasp of how schism is defined exactly.  I need to learn more about that difficult and sad topic.
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    Offline TuAmigo

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #112 on: September 18, 2024, 04:28:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: JCRev2033 on September 18, 2024, 09:51:08 AM
    What do you mean by other trads who follow false pastors, Stubborn? Are you thinking e.g. of sedevacantists following e.g. Fr. Cekada (rest in peace), or of indult catholics following e.g. Fr. Ripperger? In what sense are they false pastors, as you claim?
    JCRev2033, do you mind if I ask how you would answer my question (copied below)?

    How would we respond to the criticism that this [i.e. various Traditionalist positions] is similar to the Protestant Reformers who had a common enemy, but couldn't agree amongst themselves and ended up creating various new churches based on their own interpretations?  Are the differences between Traditionalist positions not grave, which would lead to a schism between Traditionalist positions?
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #113 on: September 19, 2024, 04:28:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: TuAmigo on September 18, 2024, 04:21:00 PM
    I would argue that most faithful Novus Ordo Catholics would say they are striving to do God's Holy Will, too.
    Well, you said to keep the NO out of it and focus only on traditionalists, but if we want to venture into the NO, then they'd be beating the wind with that argument. The whole concept is non-existent to most conciliar catholics because to them, that's not really necessary. 

    After V2, which was the NO's Pentecost, a new religion was born and the true religion was abandoned. V2 brought in a new faith, new liturgy, new lex orandi/credendi, new sacraments, new laws, new, new, new, which is condemned and is against God's holy will. V2's faith and religion is indeed no longer Catholic. To be a member of that religion is against God's holy will. 

     
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    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline brogan

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #114 on: September 21, 2024, 08:24:03 AM »
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    • I'm a "semi-sede". 

    I believe the new mass and new sacraments and new priest and bishops are all valid. But I do not believe Francis is a Catholic so therefore he is not pope. I do not know if Vatican II teaches heresy or the if the other popes like Benedict were real popes. 
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    Offline TuAmigo

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #115 on: September 22, 2024, 11:36:17 PM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on September 02, 2024, 02:12:59 PM
    I checked sedevacantist, however, the sedeprivationist is the closest I’ve been able to reason through.  I’m strictly dogmatic about it; recognizing that others may legitimately hold differing points of view.  There is no sedeprivationist chapel near me, so I attend a sedevacantist chapel.  I will attend an SSPX or Resistance chapel since I view the matter as unable to be certainly determined until a fully Catholic Pope makes a definitive ruling. 
    Seraphina, can you help me understand what a "fully Catholic Pope" means?
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    Offline JPKTrad

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #116 on: September 23, 2024, 04:45:19 PM »
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    • Quote from: TuAmigo on September 22, 2024, 11:36:17 PM
    Seraphina, can you help me understand what a "fully Catholic Pope" means?
    It is a Pope that holds all of the Dogmas of the Faith, whole and entire and does not teach a false religion of ecuмenism. 
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    Offline brogan

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #117 on: September 30, 2024, 09:46:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: JPKTrad on September 23, 2024, 04:45:19 PM
    It is a Pope that holds all of the Dogmas of the Faith, whole and entire and does not teach a false religion of ecuмenism.
    A Catholic who was validly elected by the college of Cardinals.
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    Offline TuAmigo

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #118 on: October 01, 2024, 12:42:58 AM »
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    • Quote from: JPKTrad on September 23, 2024, 04:45:19 PM
    It is a Pope that holds all of the Dogmas of the Faith, whole and entire and does not teach a false religion of ecuмenism.
    JPKTrad, are the Dogmas of the Faith defined anywhere?  When I do web searches, I see various results including multiple results that reference a list of 255 dogmas (e.g. https://www.virgosacrata.com/dogmas.html).
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    Offline Godefroy

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #119 on: October 01, 2024, 02:55:24 AM »
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    • What is the status of someone who believes that the Church erred in occasional matters of faith and morals before Vatican 2?

    Such as the acceptance of certain forms of usury. 
     
    The condemnation of Action Française. 

    The condemnation of the armed struggle by the Cristeros against the mexican government. 

    The 1892 ralliement of the Church to the French Republic

    The homo erotic paintings in the sistine chapel.

    The cabalist infiltration in the rennaissance church that resulted in the papal apartments decorated with a painting, still present, of Hermes Trismegistus

    The non naming of the traditional enemies of the church in any papal bull, letter or encyclical for over 400 years.

     


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