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Poll

What is your traditionalist position?

Sedevacantist
41 (50%)
Resistance
13 (15.9%)
SSPX
21 (25.6%)
Indult
6 (7.3%)
Novus Ordo
1 (1.2%)

Total Members Voted: 79

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Author Topic: Your Traditionalist Position  (Read 22604 times)

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Offline Soubirous

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Re: Your Traditionalist Position
« Reply #30 on: September 03, 2024, 08:30:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: RobertS on September 03, 2024, 04:48:09 AM
    Even the Indult position has some issues, but mostly practical issues, not doctrinal ones. I'm sure its right.

    Lex orandi, lex credendi, lex vivendi. The chain is unbreakable.

    What you term merely practical issues are indeed doctrinal ones because implicit is the acceptance of those new doctrines. Little by little in indult churches we see oddities such as women leading the Rosary in the presence of men, so-called Divine Mercy devotions announced in the bulletin, and by these paths the indifferentism seeps in. Sure, there's still the smells and bells and veils and altar rails.

    Please explain for us why it is that Rome happily indulges, in the name of "enculturation", a Zairean Rite and now an Amazonian Rite (Robert, do read those links) while hounding the TLM into encapsulated cells that must still bow down to the NOM, as well as its radically new belief system and the lifestyles it condones? 
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    Let nothing disturb you, let nothing frighten you, all things pass away: God never changes. Patience obtains all things. He who has God finds he lacks nothing; God alone suffices. - St. Teresa of Jesus

    Offline Traddie

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #31 on: September 03, 2024, 09:16:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: Stubborn on September 03, 2024, 06:58:23 AM
    Only inferior to the point that it's against the law of Quo Primum?

    Quo Primum never said the Church is forbidden from promulgating a new missal, nor did it say the Church is unable to make changes to the Mass.  In fact, the Council of Trent explicitly stated that the Church can change the liturgy, as did Pous XII.  Are you ignorance of what Trent and Pius XII teach concerning this point, or are you guilty of pertinaciously rejecting it?


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    Only inferior to the point that over 90% of it's adherents, include priests and bishops, do not believe in the Real Presence?

    That is a false accusation.


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    Only inferior to the point that the NO "churches" are being shuttered all over the place ever since this "inferior mass" was perpetrated?

    Another false accusation.

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    Only inferior to the point that against the clear warning of St. Paul, it has women speakers?

    No disagreement there, but that is not a requirement of the NO.

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    Only inferior to the point that communion in the hand is a requirement and that laymen and women distribute communion?

    Communion in the hand is an apostolic practice. Surely you are not ignorance of that, right?  Like it or not, communion on the tongue is a novelty that developed many centuries after Christ founded the Church, and it was concenmed by the Council of Trullo.

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    Only inferior to the point that they use altar girls?

    No disagreement here either, but altar girls are not a requirement of the NO.

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    Only inferior to the point that by design it is devoid of all reverence and sanctity?

    The Church did not "design" it to be devoid of all reverence.  Another false accusation.

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    Only inferior to the point that those who go there are taught to believe one faith is as good as any other - as long as it's not the traditional faith and Mass?

    Another false accusation.  Why do you lie so much?

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    And on and on this list could go.

    I'm sure you could considering that you just make stuff up as you go along without even attempting to provide any poof.



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    Offline Traddie

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #32 on: September 03, 2024, 09:28:44 AM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on September 03, 2024, 12:06:26 AM
    Let me rephrase, I’d consider myself sedeprivationist to the extent I understand it.  I don’t think you read my post correctly.


    It amazes me how easily fallen away Catholics (and here I am referring to you) will following the errors and heresies of public heretics, such as "Bishop" Sanborn ("bishop" is in quatation marks because the Church has formally declared that it does not recognize his episcopal consecration). 

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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #33 on: September 03, 2024, 09:33:59 AM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 02, 2024, 07:52:37 PM
    I didn't vote, but to answer the question: I attend a licit traditional mass celebrated by a validly ordained priest with ordinary jurisdiction.  Who else on here can say the same?
    .

    Then why didn't you just click the "Indult" option in the poll?
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    Offline Yeti

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #34 on: September 03, 2024, 09:48:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 03, 2024, 09:28:44 AM
    "Bishop" Sanborn ("bishop" is in quatation marks because the Church has formally declared that it does not recognize his episcopal consecration).
    .

    I've never heard of this. Can you please provide a link or some sort of docuмentation?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #35 on: September 03, 2024, 10:30:15 AM »
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    • I can be moved to appreciate indulters who fear attending non-Diocesan masses for fear of being outside the Church. It's a Catholic instinct, and an awful lot of those people come around. 

    Indulters who lord their indultism over traditionalists are petty and pathetic, and should be met with more or less the same contempt they hurl toward us. 
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    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Giovanni Berto

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #36 on: September 03, 2024, 10:37:53 AM »
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    • People like this "Traddie" guy are not merely irritating fools, they are poisonous.

    There are many lurkers who might be mislead by his malicious posts. Even those who are registered and are better informed will waste their time and energy arguing with somebody who already thinks that they know it all and who is here only to create chaos.

    Plus, if you have not noticed, his username, ""Traddie", is a joke, an irony. He is obviously not a Traditionalist.
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #37 on: September 03, 2024, 11:03:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on September 02, 2024, 09:48:14 PM
    I assume that you believe that the SSPX are schismatic too? And that Archbishop Lefebvre deserved to be excommunicated?

    Would you have your 'licit' traditional mass, if not for Archbishop Lefebvre? Keep in mind that the traditional mass was nearly fully banned after the new mass replaced it.
    Traddie, are you planning on ignoring these questions too?  Is the Resistance also schismatic/non-Catholic/a sect?
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #38 on: September 03, 2024, 11:17:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on September 03, 2024, 10:37:53 AM
    People like this "Traddie" guy are not merely irritating fools, they are poisonous.

    There are many lurkers who might be mislead by his malicious posts. Even those who are registered and are better informed will waste their time and energy arguing with somebody who already thinks that they know it all and who is here only to create chaos.

    Plus, if you have not noticed, his username, ""Traddie", is a joke, an irony. He is obviously not a Traditionalist.
    It also appears that at least 1 or 2 anti-Trad members agree with his anti-Trad rhetoric.      
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #39 on: September 03, 2024, 11:18:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Giovanni Berto on September 03, 2024, 10:37:53 AM
    People like this "Traddie" guy are not merely irritating fools, they are poisonous.

    Correct.  People like Faggie here, and Slaza & Sicoe are open enemies of the Faith while pretending to defend it.  They should be the first excommunicated by a Traditional Pope (Modernists will just leave and will require no such action).
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #40 on: September 03, 2024, 11:22:32 AM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 03, 2024, 09:28:44 AM
    Sedeprivationism is pseudo-intellectualism at its finest and only a complete fool would reject the legitimacy of Francis based on a novelty, such as the modern version of sedeprivationism, that they don't understand.

    I say modern version because the heretics Wycliff and Huss were also sedeprivationists, and many of their condemned propositions apply equally to the sedevacantist and sedeprivationist heretics of our day.  Let me provide just one example.

    The heretics, Fr. Cekada and Vigano, both said they reject the legitimacy of Francis because he doesn't act like a Pope.  That is one of the condemned propositions of Wycliff and Huss, and those two heretics both publicly professed it. 

    It amazes me how easily fallen away Catholics (and here I am referring to you) will following the errors and heresies of public heretics, such as "Bishop" Sanborn ("bishop" is in quatation marks because the Church has formally declared that it does not recognize his episcopal consecration).  There's a saying, "when people stop believing in God, they will believe in anything."  A similar saying, which is equally true, is that when Catholics lose the faith and publicly defect from the Roman Catholic Church (the visible hierarchical society consisting of the local Church of Roma and diocese throughout the world in union with it), they will believe the most ridiculous heresies - even if they don't understand them.
    Why are you so angry with us?  If you were truly practicing what you believe then you would not associate with us.

    Have you read Guadium es Spes?  It seemed to change our God focused Catholicism to a man centered religion.  Our Church couldn't teach that? Could it?  How about ecuмenism?  Like the prayer meetings of Assisi where many of the Catholic altars were given over to other religions for a period of time to pray to their personal gods.  The crisis we have in the Catholic Church is not a simple one.  Practicing Charity will go a lot father than coming here with guns blazing.
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #41 on: September 03, 2024, 11:25:12 AM »
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    • Quote from: Gray2023 on September 03, 2024, 11:22:32 AM
    Why are you so angry with us?  If you were truly practicing what you believe then you would not associate with us.

    It's for the same reason that ex-Catholics always become the most virulent anti-Catholics.  They have troubled consciences, and their crusades are more about trying to convince themselves, and thereby quiet that pesky voice of conscience, than to convince others and convert them from motives of charity (which are nowhere in evidence).  It's also why Benedict Salza and Robert Arnold have gone on the warpath against Traditionalists, in a desperate attempt to appease their own traitorous consciences.  Their vitriol and polemics are not going to "convert" anyone, so that's clearly not their motivation, to convert these poor lost Trad souls, just as the hostile anti-Catholic ex-Catholics are not trying to "save" Catholics as they are trying to appease their own guilty consciences and convince themselves that they're not on the road to damnation.
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #42 on: September 03, 2024, 11:32:45 AM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 03, 2024, 09:16:25 AM
    Quo Primum never said the Church is forbidden from promulgating a new missal, nor did it say the Church is unable to make changes to the Mass.
    Ya right, the pope, Pius V, established a law for all time but he didn't actually mean for the law to be followed.


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    In fact, the Council of Trent explicitly stated that the Church can change the liturgy, as did Pous XII.  Are you ignorance of what Trent and Pius XII teach concerning this point, or are you guilty of pertinaciously rejecting it? 
    Trent never said those who adhere to the Mass of Pope Pius V could be judged, threatened, penalized, calumniated and censured for doing so. What boat did you just get off?


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    Communion in the hand is an apostolic practice. Surely you are not ignorance of that, right?  Like it or not, communion on the tongue is a novelty that developed many centuries after Christ founded the Church, and it was concenmed by the Council of Trullo.
    Supposedly the new jazz was supposed to bring the church more inline with and usher it into modern times, not back into antiquity. Pope Pius XII condemned that idea.


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    The Church did not "design" it to be devoid of all reverence.  Another false accusation.
    Tell that to the one or two faithful trying to pray while the band plays on.



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    Only inferior to the point that those who go there are taught to believe one faith is as good as any other - as long as it's not the traditional faith and Mass?
    Another false accusation.  Why do you lie so much?
    Lie? The newchurch even has a name for it, they call it "being ecuмenical", also sometimes known as interfaith gatherings.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #43 on: September 03, 2024, 11:40:55 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on September 03, 2024, 11:25:12 AM
    It's for the same reason that ex-Catholics always become the most virulent anti-Catholics.  They have troubled consciences, and their crusades are more about trying to convince themselves, and thereby quiet that pesky voice of conscience, than to convince others and convert them from motives of charity (which are nowhere in evidence).  It's also why Benedict Salza and Robert Arnold have gone on the warpath against Traditionalists, in a desperate attempt to appease their own traitorous consciences.  Their vitriol and polemics are not going to "convert" anyone, so that's clearly not their motivation, to convert these poor lost Trad souls, just as the hostile anti-Catholic ex-Catholics are not trying to "save" Catholics as they are trying to appease their own guilty consciences and convince themselves that they're not on the road to damnation.
    Lad, you confuse me.  Sometimes your responses are reasonable and I agree with them.  Other times you seem to get angry yourself when their are differences, like FE.  I guess that it is just the nature of humans.  
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    1 Corinthians: Chapter 13 "4 Charity is patient, is kind: charity envieth not, dealeth not perversely; is not puffed up; 5 Is not ambitious, seeketh not her own, is not provoked to anger, thinketh no evil;"

    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #44 on: September 03, 2024, 11:47:48 AM »
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    • Quote from: 2Vermont on September 03, 2024, 04:40:06 AM
    Seraphina, I think he merely used your post to make a dig at the sedeprivationist position/theory. 
    You’re probably right, but when words are put in my mouth in public, I need to clarify and correct.  It’s required in justice to myself, and to others who can be led astray by misinformation.  Our Lord requires Truth not only in the inward parts, but in public.  
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