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Poll

What is your traditionalist position?

Sedevacantist
41 (50%)
Resistance
13 (15.9%)
SSPX
21 (25.6%)
Indult
6 (7.3%)
Novus Ordo
1 (1.2%)

Total Members Voted: 79

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Author Topic: Your Traditionalist Position  (Read 22593 times)

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Offline moneil

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Re: Your Traditionalist Position
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2024, 07:21:33 PM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 02, 2024, 06:02:26 PM
    The worst of all has to be he CMRI cult, which was founded by the notorious heretic, Francis Schuckardt aka Antipope Hadrian VII.  Is that the sect that you belong to?  Every member of the CRMI sect has incurred a latae sententiae exommunication, which means they are cut off from the communion of saints.
    Though I'm not of the sedevacantist nor the sedeprivationist (which I've never entirely understood) position, the above post must be addressed.  Schuckardt was expelled from the organization.  Bishop George Musey (Thuc Line) readministered sacraments as necessary, and reordained the priests.  The Congregation held a general chapter in 1986 to adopt its rule, which was approved by the well respected Bishop Robert McKenna.  Father Mark Pivarunas was elected as Superior General and in 1991 he was consecrated a Bishop by Bishop Moises Carmona (Thuc Line).

    While only observing from a distance (I do have friends who are CMRI) they strike me as the most missionary minded of the traditionalist groups.  In Washington they have established chapels and schools in Spokane and Tacoma and three mission stations with monthly Masses.  They have a reputation for supplying priests to say Mass for communities without making inordinate demands for money or having property signed over to them.  As far as I can tell they form their priests in seminaries organized as directed by the Council of Trent and provide opportunities for men and women to serve as professed religious.  Some of the other traditionalist organizations and independents may do well to emulate their example.
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    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #16 on: September 02, 2024, 07:24:49 PM »
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    • "Traddie" keeps ignoring the question "Where do you attend Mass?"

    I have noted his presence and will state he is on a SHORT LEASH at this point.

    I have had someone from "Salza/Siscoe & co." join CathInfo multiple times, and their morality doesn't prevent them from re-joining the forum each time I ban them. So there's that.

    On the lookout for more evidence "Traddie" is associated with Salza/Siscoe or their position.
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    Offline Soubirous

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #17 on: September 02, 2024, 07:27:34 PM »
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    • Quote from: Matthew on September 02, 2024, 07:24:49 PM
    "Traddie" keeps ignoring the question "Where do you attend Mass?"

    Maybe he's the one that picked Indult? ::)
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    Offline Traddie

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #18 on: September 02, 2024, 07:52:37 PM »
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    • Quote from: Soubirous on September 02, 2024, 07:27:34 PM
    Maybe he's the one that picked Indult? ::)

    I didn't vote, but to answer the question: I attend a licit traditional mass celebrated by a validly ordained priest with ordinary jurisdiction.  Who else on here can say the same?
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    Offline Traddie

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #19 on: September 02, 2024, 07:56:54 PM »
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    • Quote from: moneil on September 02, 2024, 07:21:33 PM
    Though I'm not of the sedevacantist nor the sedeprivationist (which I've never entirely understood) position, the above post must be addressed.  Schuckardt was expelled from the organization.  Bishop George Musey (Thuc Line) readministered sacraments as necessary, and reordained the priests.  The Congregation held a general chapter in 1986 to adopt its rule, which was approved by the well respected Bishop Robert McKenna.  Father Mark Pivarunas was elected as Superior General and in 1991 he was consecrated a Bishop by Bishop Moises Carmona (Thuc Line).

    That's all well and good, but it doesn't change the fact that the CMRI is a non-Catholic sect.  Being reordained (illicitly for the second time) by Musey, and then being "approved" by McKenna, an excommunicated pseudo-bishop who didn't have the authority to approve anything, doesn't make a non-Catholic sect part of the Catholic Church.  That should be obvious to anyone who has even a basic understanding of ecclesiology.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #20 on: September 02, 2024, 09:48:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 02, 2024, 07:52:37 PM
    I didn't vote, but to answer the question: I attend a licit traditional mass celebrated by a validly ordained priest with ordinary jurisdiction.  Who else on here can say the same?

    I assume that you believe that the SSPX are schismatic too? And that Archbishop Lefebvre deserved to be excommunicated?

    Would you have your 'licit' traditional mass, if not for Archbishop Lefebvre? Keep in mind that the traditional mass was nearly fully banned after the new mass replaced it.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Sneedevacantist

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #21 on: September 02, 2024, 10:23:40 PM »
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    • I hold the Sedevacantist position, but I mostly attend at an SSPX chapel due to availability.
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    Offline Sneedevacantist

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #22 on: September 02, 2024, 10:46:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 02, 2024, 05:07:29 PM
    Fr. Cekada's sect recognizes Pius XII as a legitimate pope, but resists (i.e., rejects) his liturgical reforms.
    This is your only point that I can agree on (though I wouldn't call SGG a sect). It seems hypocritical to me to believe that Pope Pius XII was the last true Pope, that a true Pope cannot give harm in his teachings and reforms, that recognize and resist is erroneous/heretical, and that the 1955 Holy Week reforms are not harmful in themselves and were validly promulgated, but yet refuse to follow said Holy Week reforms. No, "Bugnini cooties" is not a justification in rejecting them today, neither are "one step closer to Novus Ordo", "transitory reform", or "Pope Pius XII wouldn't have made the reforms if he knew where things were heading" valid excuses. If the 1955 Holy Week reforms were validly promulgated and no true Pope since then has abrogated them (and last time I checked, Pope Pius XII didn't set an expiration date on them), then every sede cleric should be using the reforms. Their personal opinion on their content or implications is wholly irrelevant, they do not possess the authority to start picking and choosing which reforms to obey. Why reject the 1955 Holy Week and not the 3 hour Eucharistic fast, or the permission for evening Masses? This selective filtering of Pope Pius XII's reforms only serves to undermine the legitimacy of the sedevacantist position.
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    Offline Gray2023

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #23 on: September 02, 2024, 10:46:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 02, 2024, 07:52:37 PM
    I didn't vote, but to answer the question: I attend a licit traditional mass celebrated by a validly ordained priest with ordinary jurisdiction.  Who else on here can say the same?
    So FSSP?
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    Offline Seraphina

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #24 on: September 03, 2024, 12:06:26 AM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 02, 2024, 05:13:54 PM
    But how can you reason through sedeprivationism when you don't understand sedeprivationism?  Or are you the one person who does understand it.  If so, please explain it for the rest of us.
    Let me rephrase, I’d consider myself sedeprivationist to the extent I understand it.  I don’t think you read my post correctly.  I never said I have no understanding of the various positions on the crisis in the Church—-or don’t you acknowledge the fact that millions of Catholics don’t practice the Faith or even know the basic precepts.  
    For a better explanation of sedeprivationism, Check out Bp. Sanborn’s The Thesis.  It on YouTube.  He explains it a lot better than I.  My view is close to His Excellency’s, but less dogmatic. 
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    Offline StAnthonyPadua Radtrad

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #25 on: September 03, 2024, 02:04:09 AM »
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    • I attend a CMRI chapel
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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #26 on: September 03, 2024, 04:40:06 AM »
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    • Quote from: Seraphina on September 03, 2024, 12:06:26 AM
    Let me rephrase, I’d consider myself sedeprivationist to the extent I understand it.  I don’t think you read my post correctly.  I never said I have no understanding of the various positions on the crisis in the Church—-or don’t you acknowledge the fact that millions of Catholics don’t practice the Faith or even know the basic precepts. 
    For a better explanation of sedeprivationism, Check out Bp. Sanborn’s The Thesis.  It on YouTube.  He explains it a lot better than I.  My view is close to His Excellency’s, but less dogmatic.
    Seraphina, I think he merely used your post to make a dig at the sedeprivationist position/theory.  
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #27 on: September 03, 2024, 05:53:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: RobertS on September 03, 2024, 04:48:09 AM
    Indult. Indult is the most reasonable position, and easily proven by many authorities and arguments, for those open to following Truth wherever it may lead. Take for e.g. that the Church cannot give evil, which is a standard position in traditional theology. Therefore, the New Mass cannot be inherently evil, but only inferior to the TLM. All theological texts teach this principle, and it was confirmed/reiterated by Pope Pius XII, Pope Pius VI in Auctorem Fidei, the Council of Trent etc. Fr. Ripperger of the FSSP has written on this, and +ABL also held a similar position on the NOM at least in the original years, as many quotes of his demonstrate. Btw, the sedevacantists agree with this principle, and it's part of the reason why they hold the OUM of the Church is not the Church. But that position is ultimately unsustainable. The Catholic Religion cannot be sustained without a Living Magisterium. We are not Prots, nor even OCs or Orthos etc. So all these positions have problems. Even the Indult position has some issues, but mostly practical issues, not doctrinal ones. I'm sure its right.


    The Church may not be able to give evil, but isn't it possible that the Modernists who occupy the Church can give evil? Archbishop Lefebvre said over and over again that the Church is occupied by Modernists. According to Pope St. Pius X, Modernism is a heresy. Have you read Pascendi?

    Your above post seems to indicate that everything in the Church is going along just fine, and that the only problem is that some traditionalists, such as on this forum, take too strong a stance, when there is no need to do so. Everything is just fine. Just attend the indult. But how long are those going to be available? Pope Francis wants them gone. I'm not against attending the indult though. 

    How can the Council of Trent, or Pope Pius XII teach that the new mass is only inferior to the TLM, when the TLM was replaced by the new mass long after Trent, and after the papacy of Pope Pius XII?

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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #28 on: September 03, 2024, 06:58:23 AM »
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    • Quote from: RobertS on September 03, 2024, 04:48:09 AM
    Indult. Indult is the most reasonable position, and easily proven by many authorities and arguments, for those open to following Truth wherever it may lead. Take for e.g. that the Church cannot give evil, which is a standard position in traditional theology. Therefore, the New Mass cannot be inherently evil, but only inferior to the TLM.
    Only inferior to the point that it's against the law of Quo Primum?
    Only inferior to the point that over 90% of it's adherents, include priests and bishops, do not believe in the Real Presence?
    Only inferior to the point that the NO "churches" are being shuttered all over the place ever since this "inferior mass" was perpetrated? 
    Only inferior to the point that against the clear warning of St. Paul, it has women speakers?
    Only inferior to the point that communion in the hand is a requirement and that laymen and women distribute communion?
    Only inferior to the point that they use altar girls?
    Only inferior to the point that by design it is devoid of all reverence and sanctity?
    Only inferior to the point that those who go there are taught to believe one faith is as good as any other - as long as it's not the traditional faith and Mass?


    And on and on this list could go.

    No, the new "mass" is not "only inferior" to the True Mass, it is an inherently evil service because it apes the True Mass, and it's fruits are rotten to the core. It's purpose is to replace the True Mass, not to worship God.
     
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    Offline CatholicChris

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    Re: Your Traditionalist Position
    « Reply #29 on: September 03, 2024, 08:12:56 AM »
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    • Quote from: Traddie on September 02, 2024, 07:52:37 PM
    I didn't vote, but to answer the question: I attend a licit traditional mass celebrated by a validly ordained priest with ordinary jurisdiction.  Who else on here can say the same?


    An Eastern Rite liturgy? 
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