Imagine you are a r&r, and then you meet a Protestant who believes in faith alone.

You prove to him how the Catholic Church is the real and only Church and how he's wrong and how he need to become a Catholic if he wants to be saved.

Just when he is about to convert, he finds out about the 1999 Joint Declaration with the Lutherans which what you, as an r&r, deem to be the Church and your authorities, accepted.

Then he will say "Wait a second! I can still remain a Lutheran according to your Church! This is what ecuмenism is all about! I can still believe in sola fides according to this docuмent! And moreover, we will jointly commemorate the 500th anniversary of Luther's tacking of his theses!".

He will also point you out to the fact that what you deem to be the Church, rejects proselytizing and making converts. He will show you how Ratzinger, as Benedict 16, explicitly told Protestants in 2005 that they don't have to convert. He will point you out to the FACT that what you think is the Church blatantly rejects the salvation dogma and teaches you don't even have to be Catholic, or accept the papacy etc.

As a r&r, your position boils down to telling him: "the last 6 Popes are wrong, and the entire Hierarchy is wrong too. We are right and the Church is wrong".

He will logically tell you: "Oh and who made you Pope? How are you not setting yourself up as the Magisterium? How are you any different from any Protestant since you decide for yourself what you will believe and you reject and defy authority? If they are your Popes how can you challenge them? Moreover your own Church regards you as schismatic and as Pelagians".

Any non-Catholic will tell you: "No thanks! YOUR POPES AND YOUR AUTHORITIES SAY OTHERWISE".

You will be left utterly defeated, embarrassed, and utterly incapable of making a single convert.

If you hold to r&r that is.

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This is just one of countless examples i could give of the utter absurdity of recognizing these men as Popes and real authorities, because you cannot even logically defend the Faith or make a convert.

It will always boil down to "the Pope is wrong, we are right" and that is completely un-Catholic.

And of course the issue isn't about a pope's private opinion on things, so don't even go there.

We are talking about the fact that the r&r people reject what they deem to be the Pope's and the Church's Ordinary and Universal Magisterium, which is infallible.


The sedevacantist avoids all these absurdities by proclaiming the truth: all these guys are apostate non-Catholic heretics and they do not represent the truth, and it is precisely because of those things which you want to justify not converting that they are not Catholics. We reject them completely and they have no authority whatsoever.

The sedevacantist is the only one who can fully defend the Faith right now without being embarrassed.

You prove to him how the Catholic Church is the real and only Church and how he's wrong and how he need to become a Catholic if he wants to be saved.

Then you introduce him to the Dimonds and tell him how they can explain the situation but you do not believe they are even Catholic - then bring on Fr. Cekada who teaches there is salvation outside the Church and explain to him why he needs to be Catholic to be saved even though there is salvation outside the Church - oh, and be sure not to forget to teach him that to be saved, he needs to believe that the pope is not the pope or else he will be an illogical heretic.



 

I disagree Cathedra. Plenty of people have converted from protestantism, not to mention other religions, to Traditional Catholicism, specifically holding the R&R position. Some here on this very forum.

He is on a mission to promulgate the pope is not the pope and that R&R is illogical lol

Quote from: Cathedra

You prove to him how the Catholic Church is the real and only Church and how he's wrong and how he need to become a Catholic if he wants to be saved.

Then you introduce him to the Dimonds and tell him how they can explain the situation but you do not believe they are even Catholic - then bring on Fr. Cekada who teaches there is salvation outside the Church and explain to him why he needs to be Catholic to be saved even though there is salvation outside the Church - oh, and be sure not to forget to teach him that to be saved, he needs to believe that the pope is not the pope or else he will be an illogical heretic.

That wouldn't happen. You would obviously have to explain what is going on and who certain people are to avoid them etc. don't you think?

As was the case with me, each time i thought i had the truth, something else came up and i kept going deeper and deeper. It still happens since, like i said, i am open-minded and i am always willing to change my position if it is necessary.

I disagree Cathedra. Plenty of people have converted from protestantism, not to mention other religions, to Traditional Catholicism, specifically holding the R&R position. Some here on this very forum.

But r&r is not traditional Catholicism nor a Catholic position.

It is blasphemous and heretical, for it holds the Church defected, taught error, heresy and is in apostasy, whether or not they admit it or even if they say they don't believe in this.

Since they obviously know this is blasphemous and heretical, to "solve" this problem, the sspx somehow says Vatican II, the new mass, the 1983 code etc. etc. "did not come from the Church".

That's why they say the new mass was "illegally promulgated" and that the old mass was "never abrogated".

It would be more plausible if they were to say that a poltergeist instituted Vatican II and the new mass and the code and on and on and on and the "authorities" in the Vatican didn't even notice.

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: s2srea

I disagree Cathedra. Plenty of people have converted from protestantism, not to mention other religions, to Traditional Catholicism, specifically holding the R&R position. Some here on this very forum.

He is on a mission to promulgate the pope is not the pope and that R&R is illogical lol

Its okay that he holds his own opinion, in this way. Only he is not making logical conclusions (to which I would imagine he thinks the same of us).

In the end, I can only say that the error I see in the Novus Ordinates is the same one I see in the Sedevacantist position. Its is the same error, in actuality; different conclusion.

None of this really matters, however. If we live a Traditional Catholic life proper to our state, and receive valid sacraments- now that is what's important and where I think our emphasis should be. Everything else- mere opinion. This mess will be sorted out. Not in our lifetime, perhaps. But it will.

You put the Mass before the Faith.

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: Stubborn

Quote from: s2srea

I disagree Cathedra. Plenty of people have converted from protestantism, not to mention other religions, to Traditional Catholicism, specifically holding the R&R position. Some here on this very forum.

He is on a mission to promulgate the pope is not the pope and that R&R is illogical lol

Its okay that he holds his own opinion, in this way. Only he is not making logical conclusions (to which I would imagine he thinks the same of us).

In the end, I can only say that the error I see in the Novus Ordinates is the same one I see in the Sedevacantist position. Its is the same error, in actuality; different conclusion.

None of this really matters, however. If we live a Traditional Catholic life proper to our state, and receive valid sacraments- now that is what's important and where I think our emphasis should be. Everything else- mere opinion. This mess will be sorted out. Not in our lifetime, perhaps. But it will.

You put the Mass before the Faith.

I did not. Read again:

"If we live a Traditional Catholic life proper to our state, and receive valid sacraments-"

If its not obvious that by living a 'Traditional Catholic life', real and genuine, implies having and keeping the Faith, that I affirm that now.

Try speaking to a Protestant or even Greek "Orthodox" believing there is no more Church structure, hierarchy etc as a Catholic. They will either laugh at you or tell you they got it right before you.

And yet this is what is predicted to happen in the Bible and many prophecies.

Even more will they laugh in your face, when your popes have told them they do not have to convert, or that their sect is a "Sister Church", or that they have a mission from God, or that they are pastors in the Church, or that your popes say that the Church is built up when they celebrate their masses.

Your popes already told them they had it right.

Many Protestants in recent years, by the grace of God, have come to the Church and to Tradition after studying the true Faith, and after learning of the modern crisis in the Church.

Like Thomas Woods?

He says there is not a single heresy in Vatican 2 or by the newpopes, and he thinks Mother Teresa was a Saint.

That's a "great success" for sure.