Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all  (Read 126091 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline BumphreyHogart

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 689
  • Reputation: +226/-662
  • Gender: Male
Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
« Reply #255 on: May 29, 2017, 07:00:15 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!3
  • I didn't ask whether anyone could discern it. I asked whether a true pope can be outside the Church.

    STUBBORN?

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46883
    • Reputation: +27744/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #256 on: May 29, 2017, 08:22:26 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Both you and Lad are confusing "magisterium" with "Hierarchy". The Hierarchy, which includes the pope, is human, as such is absolutely, entirely fallible. 


    Sorry, Stubborn, but you couldn't be more wrong about this.  In fact, this distinction (the way you applied it) is expressly condemned by Vatican I.  We are not talking about the personal orthodoxy of the V2 Popes.  We are talking about what they taught to the Universal Church (the Magisterium) and the Divine Liturgy they introduced to the Church.  Your distinction is completely false.  With such falsehoods you simply give more ammunition to the sedevacantists.  They correctly react against stuff like this ... but then take it too far to the opposite extreme.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46883
    • Reputation: +27744/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #257 on: May 29, 2017, 08:25:57 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • constantly confusing "hierarchy" with "magisterium" is only one of the many teachings

    Just stop with this already.  This kind of nonsense is harmful to Catholic doctrine.  Honestly, even the sedevacantists could hardly care about Jorge Bergoglio.  What they're talking about is precisely the Magisterium (Vatican II, subsequent encyclicals, etc.) and the Universal Discipline of the Church (New Mass, Code of Canon Law) ... and not about Bergoglio putting a beach ball on the altar.  This stuff simply discredits R&R ... no less than some of the bogus positions of the SVs here discredit SVism.

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46883
    • Reputation: +27744/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #258 on: May 29, 2017, 08:30:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Interesting how this appears suddenly in 1949 and is not found in Catholic books before that.

    What are you babbling on about?  Fenton cited at least a dozen theologians before his time that held this view.  He was merely summarizing the theological state of the question.  Fenton states that most theologians didn't even bother discussing the theological status of anything less than solemn definitions, that a lot of them simply dismissed encyclicals as altogether non-infallible, and a third group felt that there could be some things in encyclicals that were fallible, some things that were infallible.  NO THEOLOGIAN has ever held that everything in the Magisterium is to be considered infallible.  And these are all in "approved books".

    bosco, do you admit that anything in the Magisterium can be non-infallible, that there can be such a thing as non-fallible Magisterium?

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46883
    • Reputation: +27744/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #259 on: May 29, 2017, 08:33:06 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • I have never said, that the Church can never fail (passively) to condemn any error whatsoever.
    You keep lying about that.

    You have said exactly that, liar.


    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46883
    • Reputation: +27744/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #260 on: May 29, 2017, 08:40:58 AM »
  • Thanks!2
  • No Thanks!0
  • Gotta love the "down thumb attack" that Ladislaus has begun - within an hour I received 50 or so down thumbs, all in numbers of three across all of my posts. Looks like Ladi-boy is having a temper tantrum like a little boy because he has lost the debate.

    Here I will list some quotes that you have asked for confirming that the Church teaches both solemn and ordinary magisterium are infallible.

    Again, idiot, you keep claiming that the "ordinary magisterium" is infallble.  But you consistently omit the word "universal".  Like a Protestant, you list various papal teachings but then spin them with your own interpretation.

    I repeat, NO THEOLOGIAN HAS EVER HELD THAT EVERYTHING IN THE MAGISTERIUM IS INFALLIBLE.  Period.  End of story.  I defy you to find a SINGLE THEOLOGIAN who taught this.  Even your buddy Nado has repudiated this absurd assertion of yours.

    PS -- I haven't bothered to take the time to downthumb a single one of your idiotic posts.  I've downthumbed a couple of Nado's.  But it's Nado who's been stalking me across CI, due to some perverse obsession, downthumbing every single post of mine.  I could post that "there are Three Divine Persons in the Holy Trinity" and Nado would downthumb it.

    Also, take note of Cushingite tactic #4 being again employed.  When you've lost the argument, simply gratuitously state that your opponent has lost the debate and hurl insults ("Ladi-boy is having a temper tantrum like a little boy").

    Online Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46883
    • Reputation: +27744/-5153
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #261 on: May 29, 2017, 08:43:55 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Gotta love the "down thumb attack" that Ladislaus has begun - within an hour I received 50 or so down thumbs, all in numbers of three across all of my posts. Looks like Ladi-boy is having a temper tantrum like a little boy because he has lost the debate.

    Pathetic.  Now you're crying like a baby that I've somehow orchestrated a "down thumb attack".  Laughable.  You're being downthumbed, probably by a lot of sedevacantists even, for your absurd positions, most of which discredit sedevacantism itself.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 689
    • Reputation: +226/-662
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #262 on: May 29, 2017, 09:35:23 AM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!4
  • You have said exactly that, liar.

    Prove me to be a liar; no text has been deleted. I don't believe, and wrote, no such thing.


    Offline Mithrandylan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4619
    • Reputation: +5366/-479
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #263 on: May 29, 2017, 11:25:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I was merely using the term "suspect" of heresy as an illustration of the fact that actions that might be construed as having heretical intent do not of themselves rise to the level of heresy ... as an illustration of the mind of the Church on the principle here.  I am not saying that the pope is subject to canonical penalties.
    .
    Well, I don't even think that can be said with any confidence.  The Church's mind, as evidenced by these canons, seems to be one of order and hierarchy, not one of skepticism toward whether or not someone who acts like a heretic is.  The purpose of the canons is procedural, but consider that C. 188 §4 tells us that public defection from the Catholic faith is tacit resignation of an office (not a penalty) without any need for process or declaration.  Commentators explain that such defection does not even require the formal adherence to a non-Catholic sect (e.g., inscribing one's name into the membership roster of, say, the Missouri Synod Luther Church).  That being the case, the Church's mind first and foremost recognizes as a fact of both law and reality that those whose actions subscribe to a foreign faith simply do not belong, and she says that they are without, and that they lose all of their offices, and that this all happens without any need for process or declaration, and it isn't even a penalty as this operation occurs under the canons that deal with the nature and possession of offices.  And in truth it isn't really even a legal operation so much as it is the incorporation of the divine and natural law into the canons, and an acknowledgment of what even the earliest Church knew beyond any doubt: those who have severed themselves from the visible unity of faith that is the Church do not in any way, shape, or form belong to or in her.
    .
    I think that those who are committed sedeplenists-- or "sededoubtists"-- should consider that their arguments now and over the last few years have been reduced not to actually arguing that the conciliar claimants are Catholic, but that we can't know whether or not they are, and/or if we can, we can't say or acknowledge whether or not they are.
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline saintbosco13

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 647
    • Reputation: +201/-312
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #264 on: May 29, 2017, 12:35:52 PM »
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I repeat, NO THEOLOGIAN HAS EVER HELD THAT EVERYTHING IN THE MAGISTERIUM IS INFALLIBLE. 
     
    You asked me to provide "even one" quote, and I provided you a dozen, showing that the Church teaches that the magisterium, consisting of solemn and ordinary magisterium, is INFALLIBLE. Why are you ignoring the quotes? If any of the quotes are in error, point out exactly which ones.
     
    The quotes clarify that everything in the magisterium pertaining to faith and morals is infallible, while other topics are excluded.
     

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14772
    • Reputation: +6102/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #265 on: May 29, 2017, 12:58:03 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Sorry, Stubborn, but you couldn't be more wrong about this.  In fact, this distinction (the way you applied it) is expressly condemned by Vatican I.  We are not talking about the personal orthodoxy of the V2 Popes.  We are talking about what they taught to the Universal Church (the Magisterium) and the Divine Liturgy they introduced to the Church.  Your distinction is completely false.  With such falsehoods you simply give more ammunition to the sedevacantists.  They correctly react against stuff like this ... but then take it too far to the opposite extreme.
    Sorry Lad, I wish I were wrong. I agree that we are not talking about the personal orthodoxy of the V2 Popes, but when you keep saying magisterium when you should be saying hierarchy, then you ARE talking about he personal orthodoxy of the V2 Popes.

    You saying: "...NO CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN has ever held that every teaching of the Magisterium is infallible" demonstrates your gross misunderstanding and misapplication of the term "magisterium". What you say makes absolutely zero sense.

    What you meant to say is that "...NO CATHOLIC THEOLOGIAN has ever held that every teaching of the hierarchy is infallible" - which is not only true, it actually makes sense.

    You constantly confusing the two is, IMO, a big reason that you keep saying things that make zero sense in regards to your sympathetic stance towards the sedevacantist "doctrine".

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline saintbosco13

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 647
    • Reputation: +201/-312
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #266 on: May 29, 2017, 07:13:16 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0


  • Quote from: Ladislaus on Today at 08:40:58 AM
    Quote
    I repeat, NO THEOLOGIAN HAS EVER HELD THAT EVERYTHING IN THE MAGISTERIUM IS INFALLIBLE. 
      
    You asked me to provide "even one" quote, and I provided you a dozen, showing that the Church teaches that the magisterium, consisting of solemn and ordinary magisterium, is INFALLIBLE. Why are you ignoring the quotes? If any of the quotes are in error, point out exactly which ones.
     
    The quotes clarify that everything in the magisterium pertaining to faith and morals is infallible, while other topics are excluded.
     
     
    Ladi, you'll also notice the dozen or so quotes I just provided are from a General Council and several popes, which are certainly more authoritative than quotes from individual theologians. I don't understand why you keep insisting on quotes from only theologians?
     
    Now that you've seen these quotes from a Council, popes, and other references, it's plain to see that you are believing the exact opposite of what they say, and you need to stop and think why. The only logical answer is that you have a different concept of the ordinary magisterium than the Church does.
     


    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12384
    • Reputation: +7869/-2443
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #267 on: May 29, 2017, 07:40:28 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote
    The only logical answer is that you have a different concept of the ordinary magisterium than the Church does.

    No, the only logical answer is that there are different levels of the magisterium, which is proven by the on-going discussions of the sspx and rome.  The romans have finally admitted that the V2 docuмents contain different levels of 'spiritual assent' (as they put it), which means, for the sake of this discussion, that not everything from a council is infallible.  It goes without saying that this applies to many other docuмents and speeches from rome.

    The quotes you posted are referring to the POTENTIAL dogmatic powers of the ordinary universal magisterium, if such docuмents/decrees 1) deal with faith/morals and 2) agree with "what has always been taught".  If they do not, then they are fallible.  Your quotes don't make this clarification because (in normal times) the typical persons who study this type of subject (i.e. theologians, canon lawyers, etc) consider this common knowledge.

    Offline saintbosco13

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 647
    • Reputation: +201/-312
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #268 on: May 29, 2017, 10:31:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No, the only logical answer is that there are different levels of the magisterium, which is proven by the on-going discussions of the sspx and rome.  The romans have finally admitted that the V2 docuмents contain different levels of 'spiritual assent' (as they put it), which means, for the sake of this discussion, that not everything from a council is infallible.  It goes without saying that this applies to many other docuмents and speeches from rome.

    The quotes you posted are referring to the POTENTIAL dogmatic powers of the ordinary universal magisterium, if such docuмents/decrees 1) deal with faith/morals and 2) agree with "what has always been taught".  If they do not, then they are fallible.  Your quotes don't make this clarification because (in normal times) the typical persons who study this type of subject (i.e. theologians, canon lawyers, etc) consider this common knowledge.

    If you look carefully at all the quotes I posted, you will see that they are unanimous in stating there are only 2 types of magisterial teaching; solemn and ordinary. That's it. They all say it. Anyone who says there are additional "levels" of the magisterium is only fabricating their own Catholicism. I challenge you or anyone to show me a Catholic book before Vatican II that mentions any other components to the magisterium other than solemn and ordinary teaching.

    Also, ALL General Councils are infallible, no exceptions. The Church has always taught this and comes directly from Scripture. This is another error of the SSPX and Novus ordo. Again, I challenge you or anyone to provide something from the Church before Vatican II that says not everything from a General Council is infallible. You will not find it. Again, we are speaking of subjects on faith and morals.
     

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14772
    • Reputation: +6102/-912
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #269 on: May 30, 2017, 04:17:46 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Also, ALL General Councils are infallible, no exceptions. The Church has always taught this and comes directly from Scripture. This is another error of the SSPX and Novus ordo. Again, I challenge you or anyone to provide something from the Church before Vatican II that says not everything from a General Council is infallible. You will not find it. Again, we are speaking of subjects on faith and morals.
     
    No, this is not true. This is the error which +ABL rightly said has "been infiltrated into the seminaries, the catechisms and all the manifestations of the Church..."

    You quoted V1 decreeing those things which are infallible, where do you find "ALL General Councils"?  "ALL General Councils" is not included among those things because "ALL General Councils" are not infallible by virtue of it being a General Council, the Second Vatican Council proves this truth.

    All anyone needs to do is believe their own eyes in order to accept the fact that V2 proves that error did, therefore can, be perpetrated upon a world who is taught to believe the error that "ALL General Councils are infallible, no exceptions". 

    Again, there is absolutely nothing complicated about this at all.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse