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Author Topic: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all  (Read 34053 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
« Reply #210 on: May 27, 2017, 01:19:31 PM »
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  • I can't believe you have the nerve to actually type this. The First Vatican Council and every Catholic book discussing infallibility clearly states that the magisterium is ALWAYS infallible, whether it's the solemn or the ordinary. You are blatantly promoting heresy for all to see here, and you do it with a straight face! You have no credibility AT ALL. I challenge you to post even one Catholic resource that says the magisterium is not always infallible. You will not be able to because none of them say it.
     

    :facepalm:

    In normal times you guys would be banned by your local ordinary from ever posting on any subject of Catholic theology.  There's such a thing as the "merely authentic" Magisterium, which is NOT INFALLIBLE.  Vatican I defined the infallibility of the extraordinary solemn Magisterium and the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  There's also ordinary and non-universal (aka "merely authentic") Magisterium ... which is NOT infallible.

    I'm just taken aback by the sheer stupidity here.


    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #211 on: May 27, 2017, 02:09:09 PM »
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  • First, numerous quotes have just been posted for you that actions do confirm belief, so that ends your argument right there. But, then you add the embarrassing argument that many Catholics participate in such things (i.e. praying and ѕуηαgσgυєs) due to motives of human respect. You might be able to present such an argument if Francis were otherwise perfectly orthodox. You act like you have never seen all of his other heresies posted on FrancisQuotes.com. Looking at those confirms his actions are no mistake.
     
    If there were a contest on here on how many times someone is disproven, you would definitely take first prize. Pathetic really.
     
    .
    You should actually listen to Ladislaus and look at the canons.  Then you can explain to him that "suspicion of heresy" is a canonical term.  It has a technical meaning in the law.  It is a penalty with certain conditions and processes attached to it.  It has no role to play in the discussion at all, which isn't a canonical one, but a theological one.  And it has no role to play whatsoever even if this was a canonical discussion, because the person we're discussing is "the pope." 
    .
    The only possible way that the canons could apply to Francis were if he wasn't the pope.  If he is, they don't apply.  So says Vatican I.  The pope has no judge. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #212 on: May 27, 2017, 02:25:01 PM »
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  • Infallibility does not govern the personal actions of a pope.  You're basing your entire case for sedevacante in your last few posts on participation in false worship.  

    It's been well-established on this forum that you don't read my messages, or sloppily glance over them. Your statement here about my "last few posts" is false. Look again at my last few posts, and I have done no such thing. I think you are confusing me with someone else.

    I have made myself quite clear on why the Vatican II popes are false. It involves dogmatic certitude, because it is a dogmatic fact.

    I have only recently stepped into talking about apostasy and Mortalium Animos to answer a question of sedevacantist3.

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #213 on: May 27, 2017, 02:28:40 PM »
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  • That's a different argument.  Has nothing to do with what you've been blabbering on about.  Your brains are so confused and dull that it's painful to read your posts.  If you want to argue from the TEACHING of Vatican II, that's one thing. One can make a strong case.  But you've been trumpeting the significance of mere participation in false worship as convicting popes of heresy.  I've actually known many otherwise orthodox Catholics who have participated in such because their brains are muddled; they think they can do so without compromising their faith and most certainly do not embrace the propositions of the false believers with whom they pray.


    It's a fact that those people who follow Vatican II's ecuмenism and syncretism are "abandoning" the faith. That is probably why the encyclical didn't put it in the past tense, because it is not always an instantaneous result.

    But again, read my past message where I explained why the popes of Vatican II are false popes, and it only involved official actions of the Church's magisterium, liturgy and laws, and the idea that "error against faith or morals" does not have to be outright heresy.
    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #214 on: May 27, 2017, 02:50:43 PM »
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  • .
    You should actually listen to Ladislaus and look at the canons.  Then you can explain to him that "suspicion of heresy" is a canonical term.  It has a technical meaning in the law.  It is a penalty with certain conditions and processes attached to it.  It has no role to play in the discussion at all, which isn't a canonical one, but a theological one.  And it has no role to play whatsoever even if this was a canonical discussion, because the person we're discussing is "the pope."  
    .
    The only possible way that the canons could apply to Francis were if he wasn't the pope.  If he is, they don't apply.  So says Vatican I.  The pope has no judge.
    .
    To be clear, this is because one who has incurred the "suspicion of heresy" is then warned by a superior, twice if necessary, and is then penalized by the superior.  That's what it means to be "suspect of heresy."  It isn't a theological notion used to describe someone who might be a heretic.  It is a canonical term, and a penal one at that.  Who would Ladislaus propose be the pope's judge in this case? :p
    .
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #215 on: May 27, 2017, 04:22:29 PM »
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  •  These arguments can very easily and naturally overlap but they are distinct, and when one argues that these men themselves (or, this man himself) are not Catholic, the evidence should be somewhat confined to evidence against them as individuals, to help keep things organized in discourse.
    .
    That being the case, Bumphrey's mistake is just a syllogistic one.  

    There is no mistake. 'Where the pope is, there is the Church'. An ecuмenical Council, the laws of the Church, the liturgy, are only official when the pope nods his head. If he nods his head, and it goes out to the Church, and there is something found that is harmful, then the man who gave the nod cannot be a true pope. This is a dogmatic fact.


    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #216 on: May 27, 2017, 04:58:14 PM »
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  • There is no mistake. 'Where the pope is, there is the Church'. An ecuмenical Council, the laws of the Church, the liturgy, are only official when the pope nods his head. If he nods his head, and it goes out to the Church, and there is something found that is harmful, then the man who gave the nod cannot be a true pope. This is a dogmatic fact.

    Not dogmatic fact, but dogma.  Otherwise, I agree with you.  It's the reason that R&R is not acceptable.  Now, various R&R nuances along the lines of "I don't know.  I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt until the Church declares him deposed." -- those are different.  That's more along the lines of a sedeprivationism which grants his material occupancy a certain kind of "status".

    Nevertheless, there's a fault in this reasoning process:

    If some teaching that cannot be harmful actually brings harm, then the pope cannot be the pope.  This is what I refer to modus tollentis sedevacantism, the other form where you start with the person of the pope modus ponentis sedevacantism.

    Let's say a Pope were to declare a new dogma.  According to sedevacantism, if you can't accept the dogma, then you can declare him a non-pope.  At that point, no dogma is safe because you can just contest the pope's legitimacy.  Let's say I was alive at Vatican I and decided that papal infallibility was an error.  What would have stopped me from simply declaring Pius IX a non-pope?  In order to maintain the integrity of the Magisterium, we would have to change our minds about infallibility and accept it ... rather than rejecting Pius IX.  Why?  Because we would have known at the time with the certainty of faith that Pius IX was the pope.  And how can we know this with the certainty of faith?  Because the Church universally accepted Pius IX.  Did anyone dispute the legitimacy of Paul VI before he signed the various problematic docuмents of Vatican II?  No.  He was peacefully accepted by the entire Church as a pope ... which rendered it a dogmatic fact.  Conversely, if we cannot know the legitimacy of a pope with the certainty of faith independently of an a priori to any of his teachings, then we can never know any teaching or dogma he proclaims with the certainty of faith.  Magisterium completely disappears.  So straight SVism is no less harmful to the Magisterium than R&R.  They both destroy it, one via Magisterium-sifting, the other via Pope-sifting.  Both of these constantly subject Church teaching and papal legitimacy to a constant feedback loop of validation based on the acceptance of the pope's teaching ... as determined by private judgment.  Pope teaches A.  I judge A to be Catholic.  Still Pope.  Pope teaches B.  I judge B to be an error.  No longer pope.  This is silly.

    Whether you admit it or not, this is an incredibly serious problem with sedevacantism.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #217 on: May 27, 2017, 05:00:28 PM »
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  • .
    To be clear, this is because one who has incurred the "suspicion of heresy" is then warned by a superior, twice if necessary, and is then penalized by the superior.  That's what it means to be "suspect of heresy."  It isn't a theological notion used to describe someone who might be a heretic.  It is a canonical term, and a penal one at that.  Who would Ladislaus propose be the pope's judge in this case? :p
    .

    Now, that's the problem, isn't it?  Pope has no judge.  Point of this is simply that actions render one SUSPECT of heresy and are not themselves HERESY.  It's in the nature of an action vs. an adherence to a false proposition.  Actions can certainly suggest pertinacious adherence to false propositions but do not of themselves constitute the same.


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #218 on: May 27, 2017, 05:02:42 PM »
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  • They indeed are, one is a defection from orthodoxy, the other is generally a gravely sinful act as such, but not necessarily a heretical one unless it is joined with the first.
    The ecuмenical follies are not as strong an example of conciliar heterodoxy as many other clearly heretical acts of the conciliar popes. They are removed from the false doctrines and untruths which motivate them, which is where the scrutiny should be focused.

    Adherence to and promotion of the conciliar doctrines is where the apostasy lies. One need go no further.

    Thank you.  It's refreshing to see someone applying logic instead of just emoting.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #219 on: May 27, 2017, 05:06:10 PM »
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  • Folks, we have just entered the twilight zone. I've never seen anything like it.
     
    "Heretic" is defined as a baptized person who "perniciously rejects or doubts any article of faith determined by the authority of the Catholic Church..." (A Catholic Dictionary)
     
    Now a few quotes from the Church:
     
    • "None must neither pray or sing psalms with heretics, and whosoever shall communicate with those who are cut off from the communion of the Church, whether clergyman or layman, let him be excommunicated" Council of Carthage
    • "If any ecclesiastic or layman shall go into the ѕуηαgσgυє of the Jєωs or to the meeting-houses of the heretics to join in prayer with them, let them be deposed and deprived of communion. If any Bishops or Priest or Deacon shall join in prayer with heretics, let him be suspended from Communion" III Council of Constantinople
    • Canon 33: "No one shall join in prayers with heretics or schismatics" Council of Laodicea

    Now if I go pray in common with non-Catholics in ѕуηαgσgυєs or mosques, am I not denying the above teachings of the Church?
     

    Again, these are not TEACHINGS of the Church but canonical penalties (of excommunication) for the crimes listed.  Excommunication is not the same as heresy.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #220 on: May 27, 2017, 05:12:28 PM »
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  • It's a fact that those people who follow Vatican II's ecuмenism and syncretism are "abandoning" the faith. That is probably why the encyclical didn't put it in the past tense, because it is not always an instantaneous result.

    But again, read my past message where I explained why the popes of Vatican II are false popes, and it only involved official actions of the Church's magisterium, liturgy and laws, and the idea that "error against faith or morals" does not have to be outright heresy.

    We were discussing the boscoist proposition that these actions are heretical.  As many sedevacantists do, you're conflating the personal heresy and magsterium arguments.  From the personal standpoint, yes, the error does in fact need to be heresy for him to cease to be pope.  From the infallible Magisterium, that principle is correct.  Your problem is that you extend infallibility way too far ... right down to every imprimatured book ever published.  That's Nadoism.


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #221 on: May 27, 2017, 05:19:54 PM »
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  • Not dogmatic fact, but dogma.  Otherwise, I agree with you.  

    I don't know what you are getting at with this. Sounds like there is some sarcasm there, but I am not sure.

    In any event, the fact about a particular man cannot be a dogma, because the man didn't exist in apostolic times when the deposit of faith was sealed. That is why it is a dogmatic "fact".


    It's the reason that R&R is not acceptable.  Now, various R&R nuances along the lines of "I don't know.  I'll just give him the benefit of the doubt until the Church declares him deposed." -- those are different.  That's more along the lines of a sedeprivationism which grants his material occupancy a certain kind of "status".

    There cannot be the benefit of the doubt. The principle is "a doubt pope is not pope". That predicates the notion that a pope cannot be doubtful, so if he is doubtful, then he IS not a pope.

    Sedeprivationism, so-called, states categorically that the man is NOT a pope. It only acknowledges that the non-pope possesses something that only a true pope could possess, and that is the "Apostolic See" or "Pontificate".  The Church has allowed the thought that a non-pope could actually possess it, and still not be a true pope.


    Nevertheless, there's a fault in this reasoning process:

    If some teaching that cannot be harmful actually brings harm, then the pope cannot be the pope.  This is what I refer to modus tollentis sedevacantism, the other form where you start with the person of the pope modus ponentis sedevacantism.

    You are mixed up here. It's not whether something causes harm, but intrinsically causes harm. That means that something is in fact an "error" against faith or morals in the first place. Error intrinsically causes harm by nature. We don't do the humanist thing and merely looking at some RESULTS and blame in the opposite direction. It is about intrinsic error against faith or morals.

    Vatican II taught solemnly that a person as the right from birth to freedom of religion and declared it should be made civil law. That is an intrinsic error against the faith. We don't need to wait to see the results because a doctrinal error intrinsically causes harm, and the infallibility of the Church would prevent that.

    "there can be no holiness where there is disagreement with the pope" - Pope St. Pius X

    Today, only Catholics holding the sedevacantist position are free from the anguish entailed by this truth.

    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #222 on: May 27, 2017, 06:04:27 PM »
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  • Now, that's the problem, isn't it?  Pope has no judge.  Point of this is simply that actions render one SUSPECT of heresy and are not themselves HERESY.  It's in the nature of an action vs. an adherence to a false proposition.  Actions can certainly suggest pertinacious adherence to false propositions but do not of themselves constitute the same.
    .
    Ladislaus, the point is that if the man is the pope then he is not rendered "suspect of heresy" because "suspect of heresy" is a canonical penalty.  The designation is meted from a superior to an inferior, and it includes and involves a procedure of warnings also imposed on an inferior by a superior.  Read Woywod or Augustine or Bouscaren or any of the canonists.   You're treating "suspect of heresy" like it's a theological term.  Read theologians who write about heresy and they don't talk about "suspicion of heresy."  It's a technical term.  And you're not only misusing it, you're misapplying it in the most grossly possible way by insisting that it could apply to the pope, who has no earthly judge. 
    "Be kind; do not seek the malicious satisfaction of having discovered an additional enemy to the Church... And, above all, be scrupulously truthful. To all, friends and foes alike, give that serious attention which does not misrepresent any opinion, does not distort any statement, does not mutilate any quotation. We need not fear to serve the cause of Christ less efficiently by putting on His spirit". (Vermeersch, 1913).

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #223 on: May 27, 2017, 06:38:19 PM »
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  • .
    Ladislaus, the point is that if the man is the pope then he is not rendered "suspect of heresy" because "suspect of heresy" is a canonical penalty.  The designation is meted from a superior to an inferior, and it includes and involves a procedure of warnings also imposed on an inferior by a superior.  Read Woywod or Augustine or Bouscaren or any of the canonists.   You're treating "suspect of heresy" like it's a theological term.  Read theologians who write about heresy and they don't talk about "suspicion of heresy."  It's a technical term.  And you're not only misusing it, you're misapplying it in the most grossly possible way by insisting that it could apply to the pope, who has no earthly judge.

    I was merely using the term "suspect" of heresy as an illustration of the fact that actions that might be construed as having heretical intent do not of themselves rise to the level of heresy ... as an illustration of the mind of the Church on the principle here.  I am not saying that the pope is subject to canonical penalties.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #224 on: May 27, 2017, 11:27:52 PM »
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  • :facepalm:

    In normal times you guys would be banned by your local ordinary from ever posting on any subject of Catholic theology.  There's such a thing as the "merely authentic" Magisterium, which is NOT INFALLIBLE.  Vatican I defined the infallibility of the extraordinary solemn Magisterium and the Ordinary Universal Magisterium.  There's also ordinary and non-universal (aka "merely authentic") Magisterium ... which is NOT infallible.

    I'm just taken aback by the sheer stupidity here.
     
    Please provide quotes from the Church on the "merely authentic" magisterium.