Mithrandylan-
I'm very confused as to what you're position is. I am not a sedevacantist but I believe it's a possibility. I say that 'I don't know'. I think we agree more than not.
Regarding your second point, all i'm pointing out is that a particular Church teaching is not dominated by one, particular theologian (i.e. Bellarmine). In some cases, he could have an enormous influence, but that doesn't mean that everything he says on the topic MUST be accepted.
No it doesn't. My point is that we believe that 'so and so' is the pope because the Church tells us.
Mithrandylan said
How does she tell us? What infallible docuмent is presented to the faithful that informs them of who the pope is? And how do you know that it's infallible? Or if it doesn't need to be infallible (I'm not sure exactly what your position is) then what assurances do we have that the man in the white robe standing on the loggia is actually the new pope?
How does the church tell us we have a new pope? By a visible election of the pope, by visible cardinals and by the visible, liturgical celebrations which occur immediately afterwards (i.e. smoke, bells ringing, and papal blessing over the crowd).
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And we believe that Martin Luther was in error because we know our faith and we see that what he said was wrong. ...But, we laymen CANNOT make a determination that Martin Luther (or the pope, or anyone) is a heretic (which is a very SERIOUS label) until the Church tells us. It it Her authority, and Hers alone, which can do this.
A Catholic cannot act as though the Church has declared so-and-so to be a heretic when she hasn't, so in that regard a sedevacantist cannot insist, as though it were a dogmatic fact, that such and such conciliar claimant must, under pain of sin, be considered an anti-pope.
I agree wholeheartedly.
But I'm not insisting that and you'll find that outside of the Internet, very, very few sedevacantists think this is the case. Just the Dimonds and a few Ohioans and Floridians.
I'm glad you aren't insisting that, contrary to others on this chain who are extremely dogmatic. However...based on my interactions with regular, everyday sedes (the kind who are trying to do the right thing, who want to save their souls, etc) is that they ARE very dogmatic. Because 1) they read or hear arguments from the 'popular' sedes and they take this or that catchphrase and run with it, 2) because they don't know enough of the issues to distinguish and properly analyze the topics involved, 3) because they want an easy answer to the crisis, and so they clutch to a 'black and white' outlook in an ever-increasingly gray world, 4) because they're scared they don't know their faith when people ask them to explain the situations we live in, which, in some respects are so demonically confusing that they are unexplainable.
And the above situation is VERY dangerous for their souls, because, they are adding to the confusion. Many tepid souls listen to all the arguments and lose hope and stop going to mass. Other become bitter by the constant arguing and lose their love of the faith. Others fall into so much argumentation that they become angry at any catholic who doesn't their false interpretation of church teachings.
I'm sure you see the problems this can cause...and i'm not blaming any sede or the idea of it. I'm just preaching to the choir that we must all be very cautious in the way we present our arguments. For many times the unlearned are being influenced by those of us who have read and studied and who sound like we know what we're talking about (and many times we really don't).
But that's not the case, because what a person does and what a person professes is a reflection of what a person believes. This is the mind of the Church, as evidenced by the fact that we presume sacramental intention if a man exteriorily follows the rubric; as evidenced by the fact that we flee those who teach heresy even if they claim authority (because if they are heretics they, in fact, are not authorities), etc.
I agree with your argument in theory. I agree that it APPEARS as if the Vatican 2 popes are outright, damnable heretics who should be burned at the stake for their crimes against Holy Mother Church. But, as you stated above, I can't say that with certainty, and my opinion doesn't matter, so I leave it to God to sort it out, which He will, through His Church authorities, at some point.