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Author Topic: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all  (Read 131557 times)

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Offline saintbosco13

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Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
« Reply #60 on: May 21, 2017, 11:40:01 PM »
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  • yes, a heretical Pope loses membership in the Church, but one needs to prove he is a formal heretic, not just a material heretic (which you can't do).

    There are two kinds of heresy, material (heresy out of ignorance), and formal (a deliberate denial or doubt of a revealed truth). Francis has publicly approved of atheism, ѕυιcιdє, and ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity which are all against the Natural Law built into every human being. No one can claim ignorance to approving of sins against the Natural Law, which makes these 3 heresies at a minimum to be formal heresies.
     
    Looking for you or anyone to prove me wrong on this particular point.

    Offline Arvinger

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #61 on: May 22, 2017, 02:44:23 AM »
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  • The Arians taught a SINGLE error in good faith too, and St. Athanasius and other clergy of his time insisted Catholic stays away. The Church has taught this repeatedly, for example:
     
    "Since heresy, and any kind of infidelity, is a mortal sin, they also sin mortally who expose themselves to its danger, whether by their association, or by listening to preaching, or by their reading." - St. Alphonsus Ligouri
    Are you seriously comparing the SSPX position on the Pope with Arian heresy? It is beyond absurd (and I don't see how the Arians could have taught their error in good faith, certainly not after the Council of Nicaea and its approval of a creed with homoousios).

    R&R's like the SSPX and Resistance are simply trying to make sense of the current crisis and recognize that one's private judgment is insufficient to know with certainty of faith that Pope lost his office, they also have great arguments against sedevacantism. I don't expect you to address the issue of ecclesia-vacantism which you avoid, for I am yet to see a sedevacantist providing any semi-convincing explanation for that (sedeprivationism avoids this problem with its formal-material distinction, but there are very few sedeprivationists among Trad Catholic clergy). Yes, as a result the SSPX falls into error of effectively denying indefectibility of the Church (which they obviously don't want to do and are not guilty of formal heresy), but so do sedevacantists, just from different angle. In the R&R scenario the Church has failed by the Ecuмenical Council teaching error to the universal Church, in the sedevacantist scenario the Church has failed by having no more bishops with ordinary jurisdiction which results in cessation of the Apostolic Succession (some sedes understand that and hold onto what Fr Cekada called "bishop in the woods" theory - somewhere there is a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, but no one knows who he is and where he is). Obviously I will not accuse sede clergy of formal heresy for teaching that error, because I know they do it in good faith, just like its absurd to accuse the SSPX of formal heresy.

    Again, thinking that sedevacantism provides a comprehensive explanation of the current crisis is nothing but a delusion. It is a possible, but problematic thesis which fails to answer important questions, just like R&R fails to do so. The current crisis is a mystery which we are not held accountable for solving it.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #62 on: May 22, 2017, 10:29:48 AM »
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  • Whoah...
    Here we see a very common tactic used by adherents of the resistance position: As they are usually quite unfamiliar with Catholic magisterial teaching on the Papacy and can’t be bothered to look it up, they instead make up their own inept arguments from Sacred Scripture or other sources which they think lend support to their thesis.
    So the claim is made that Christ never stripped Caiaphas the High Priest of his office, despite his official rejection and condemnation of Him (see Matthew 26:57-66). This, the resistance adherent triumphantly believes, is the death blow to Sedevacantism!
    There is just one problem with it: It isn’t true. Christ did strip the high priest of his office. More specifically, the high priest stripped himself of his office, by his own act of apostasy, the sentence being rendered by the divine law (thus Christ’s) itself.
    Don’t take our word for it, though; take the word of St. Jerome, Doctor of the Church and patron saint of Bible scholars, commenting on this passage in St. Matthew’s Gospel:
    In other words, St. Jerome tells us that when the high priest Caiaphas rent his garments and rejected Christ as the true Messias, he lost his authority and his office, automatically and without a declaration, by publicly defecting from the true religion. Does this sound familiar or what?
    Of course we can have a bad Pope. What we cannot have, however, is a non-Catholic Pope — just as we can have a bad Catholic but not a non-Catholic Catholic because that’s a contradiction in terms.
    Christ as our model is a tactic? Ridiculous.  Christ died at the hands of heretics.  Without doubt, in the corporal world, some of them maintain authority.  And as Christ Himself said, "given to them from above."   

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #63 on: May 22, 2017, 10:33:36 AM »
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  • Don't go off into a fantasy world of your own making. Do you accept the quote I cited from St. Francis de Sales or not?  I am giving you a chance to really read it, if you have not.

    The Hebrew religion was the true religion, but it wasn't the Mystical Body of Christ. The is a substantial difference between the Old Law before the Redemption, and the New Law of Grace. That is why you should read the quote I gave and accept it what it teaches.
    If Christ didn't die, you would have a case.  But Christ did die at the hands of heretics to which He was obedient unto death.  And so was His mother.   

    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #64 on: May 22, 2017, 10:44:08 AM »
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  • If Christ didn't die, you would have a case.  But Christ did die at the hands of heretics to which He was obedient unto death.  And so was His mother.  
    I thought Christ was obedient to God the Father.  He was not being obedient to heretics.  Your comments are absurd.


    Offline happenby

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #65 on: May 22, 2017, 10:49:18 AM »
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  • I thought Christ was obedient to God the Father.  He was not being obedient to heretics.  Your comments are absurd.
    Christ was obedient to heretics for the sake of His Father.  But He did permit them authority over Him as He Himself said.  "You would have no authority over Me unless it were given you from above."  Heretics killed Christ as they are killing His Church today.  Those who deny this are like Peter when he told Jesus he wouldn't have to die.  Jesus called Peter the devil for saying it.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #66 on: May 22, 2017, 11:13:50 AM »
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  • So, Ladislaus won't accept those approved Catholic books, and because I won't listen to him telling me I shouldn't either, I am "heretically depraved filth"!


    Give it a rest, Nado.  I didn't declare you to be heretically depraved on account of following "Catholic books".  There are about 3-4 legitimate grounds for that accusation ... various heresies that have been condemned as such by the Church and to which you pertinaciously adhere.  Also, my "declaration" (my use of that word) was largely argumentum ad absurdum regarding your "manifest heresy" position.  If the V2 Popes are manifest heretics and lose their membership in the Church by virtue of your declaration, then the same holds of you when you manifestly embrace heresy.  Why?  Because I say so. 

    In addition, your preposterous Nadoist theology that we must accept anything ever written in any "approved" Catholic book can ironically not be found in a single approved Catholic book.  You're like the Prots who believe in sola Scriptura but then cannot provide evidence of sola Scriptura in the selfsame Scriptura.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #67 on: May 22, 2017, 11:31:27 AM »
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  • The current crisis is a mystery which we are not held accountable for solving it.
     
    Well stated.  We have to be careful, of course, not to fall into various principled errors regarding the faith while defending our position.

    So, for instance, R&R has come dangerously close to creating a non-Catholic view of the Magisterium whereby individual Catholics can just take or leave teachings of the merely-authentic ordinary Magisterium based on their private judgment.  Traditionally, Catholics gave religious assent to such and always gave benefit of the doubt to the Magisterium.  Is this the attitude we have towards the "Magisterium" of Francis?  No, in fact, we're pretty much assuming that it's all to be taken with a monumental grain of salt.  That's not a Catholic attitude towards the Magisterium.  Also, you mentioned the problems with indefectibility.  R&R comes dangerously close to promoting a very defectible Church, defectible not only in her Universal Magisterium but also Universal Discipline.  Can't buy any of that as a Catholic.

    SVism on the other hand seems to empower individuals to reject the authority behind the Magisterium based on that same private judgment.  Grandmothers sitting in the pew can now, at any given time, reject a Pope as illegitimate if they find something in their Magisterium that they consider gravely erroneous.  [In knew an uneducated ignorant SV who at one point claimed that Pius IX was illegitimate due to some "heresy" he had detected in an encyclical.  This was a turning point in my life against SVism.]  Then there's the very real problem of ecclesia-vacantism.

    So the former is what +Sanborn called "Magisterium Sifting".  Yet SVs empower people to engage in "Pope Sifting".

    So both are rife with difficulties.

    As for my attitude.  I refuse to accept any of those non-Catholic principles ... I won't compromise my faith and my belief in the indefectibility of the Magisterium and Church's Universal discipline and jurisdiction/hierarchy.  As for the actual solution, I consider it, as you say, a mystery that I am neither capable of solving nor have the authority to solve.  I'm in a state of suspended judgment ... my so-called "sede-doubtism" position on the matter ... which many here have mocked.  Yet I consider it the most Catholic of all the positions.  I submit that this is in fact the true position of +Lefebvre if you closely examine all his writings.




    Offline TKGS

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #68 on: May 22, 2017, 11:43:19 AM »
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  • The current crisis is a mystery which we are not held accountable for solving it.
    Then why do all of you anti-sedevacantists insist that we must be able to resolve the Crisis?

    You want it both ways.  You condemn sedevacantists for merely recognizing the situation as it is rather than as we would like it to be and then you absolve yourselves for not being responsible for resolving the problem.

    Offline happenby

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #69 on: May 22, 2017, 12:11:42 PM »
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  • Then why do all of you anti-sedevacantists insist that we must be able to resolve the Crisis?

    You want it both ways.  You condemn sedevacantists for merely recognizing the situation as it is rather than as we would like it to be and then you absolve yourselves for not being responsible for resolving the problem.
    The resolution of the problem remains the same as it has always been.  It is the personal clash (and hopeful victory) over sin. Loving God with your whole heart, mind, soul and strength and your neighbor as yourself. The Church in crisis is Christ in crisis in men's souls, but manifested as a whole.  We have very limited power in the bigger picture but have been called to overcome self with God's grace.  This is where the battle is won or lost.

    Online Pax Vobis

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #70 on: May 22, 2017, 12:18:01 PM »
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  • Quote
    Then why do all of you anti-sedevacantists insist that we must be able to resolve the Crisis?
    Can you be more specific?  How do some insist this?


    Offline BumphreyHogart

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #71 on: May 22, 2017, 12:56:34 PM »
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  • Give it a rest, Nado.  I didn't declare you to be heretically depraved on account of following "Catholic books".  There are about 3-4 legitimate grounds for that accusation ... various heresies that have been condemned as such by the Church and to which you pertinaciously adhere.  Also, my "declaration" (my use of that word) was largely argumentum ad absurdum regarding your "manifest heresy" position.  If the V2 Popes are manifest heretics and lose their membership in the Church by virtue of your declaration, then the same holds of you when you manifestly embrace heresy.  Why?  Because I say so.

    In addition, your preposterous Nadoist theology that we must accept anything ever written in any "approved" Catholic book can ironically not be found in a single approved Catholic book.  You're like the Prots who believe in sola Scriptura but then cannot provide evidence of sola Scriptura in the selfsame Scriptura.

    There you go again! You recommend people ignore me, then you address me, then you distort my position and condemn it, then you will most certainly run away if I start to have a disussion with you. It has been happening over and over and over again, in black and white on this forum. Heretics run away from arguments because they have no defense. I don't run away.

    Exactly as I have desribed it, is exactly what has happened, and it is in black and white on this forum. I have promoted the contents taught in two books approved by imprimatur by two different U.S. Archbiships, as well as another Catholics concept I have referenced in 6 books about passive infallibility of the Church. You reject them all. I accept them. They were never a controversy in Catholicism. You are indeed condemning me for relaying the Catholic content from those approved Catholic books, because I won't take your warning to discard those Catholic sources as heretical.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #72 on: May 22, 2017, 01:02:33 PM »
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  • Are you seriously comparing the SSPX position on the Pope with Arian heresy? It is beyond absurd (and I don't see how the Arians could have taught their error in good faith, certainly not after the Council of Nicaea and its approval of a creed with homoousios).

     
    I am not comparing the SSPX position to the Arian heresy. I gave the Arian heresy as an example to show you that if you believe there is error being taught at the SSPX, the Church teaches you have an obligation not to go there, even if you think their error is in "good faith". You admitted the SSPX was in error and said there was no reason to leave there should someone change to the sedevacantist position. This is false because if someone becomes a sedevacantist (belief that Francis is an imposter), he/she must inevitably believe that the SSPX is in error, since they believe Francis is a true pope (the exact opposite of sedevacantism).
     

    Offline Arvinger

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #73 on: May 22, 2017, 01:27:35 PM »
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  • I am not comparing the SSPX position to the Arian heresy. I gave the Arian heresy as an example to show you that if you believe there is error being taught at the SSPX, the Church teaches you have an obligation not to go there, even if you think their error is in "good faith". You admitted the SSPX was in error and said there was no reason to leave there should someone change to the sedevacantist position. This is false because if someone becomes a sedevacantist (belief that Francis is an imposter), he/she must inevitably believe that the SSPX is in error, since they believe Francis is a true pope (the exact opposite of sedevacantism).

    First, no, the case of Arians does not prove anything like that, Arians rejected the Ecuмenical Council and dogmatically promulgated creed, they were not material heretics arguing in good faith, certinly not after Nicaea. Furthermore, in the time of Nestorian heresy St. Cyril of Jerusalem declared that he will not break communion with Nestorius until Pope Celestine I is informed of Nestorius' heretical teaching and makes a decision. You are making up your own theology here.

    Second, I believe sedevacantists to be also in grave error (ecclesia-vacantism), so following your flawed argument I'd have to be home aloner, which is absurd.

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Yes, I'm going to judge Sedevacantism here like I'm above it all
    « Reply #74 on: May 22, 2017, 02:41:55 PM »
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  • ....in the sedevacantist scenario the Church has failed by having no more bishops with ordinary jurisdiction which results in cessation of the Apostolic Succession (some sedes understand that and hold onto what Fr Cekada called "bishop in the woods" theory - somewhere there is a bishop with ordinary jurisdiction, but no one knows who he is and where he is). Obviously I will not accuse sede clergy of formal heresy for teaching that error, because I know they do it in good faith, just like its absurd to accuse the SSPX of formal heresy.

    Again, thinking that sedevacantism provides a comprehensive explanation of the current crisis is nothing but a delusion. It is a possible, but problematic thesis which fails to answer important questions, just like R&R fails to do so. The current crisis is a mystery which we are not held accountable for solving it.
     
    Your argument about ordinary jurisdiction resulting in cessation of apostolic succession is nonsense. The virtue of epikea is applied to temporarily suspend ecclesiastical laws relating to jurisdiction during a crisis like we are in. The lawmaker of those ecclesiastical laws obviously would not want the letter of the law followed during such a crisis.