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Author Topic: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop  (Read 3130 times)

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Offline Angelus

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Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
« Reply #30 on: September 02, 2023, 04:13:47 PM »
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  • The Leonine Sacramentary is an ancient text. It was not promulgated under Leo XIII. It would be nice to have the quote from it. It may or may not be available online. I remember finding, if not the whole, some of the text in either English or Latin of the Gregorian Sacramentary in trying to find out about the way the Holy Week or simply Holy Saturday was carried out I think.

    Yes, the Leonine Sacramentary is an ancient text. Its "ancient-ness" is irrelevant. Read this to learn the history of the "Leonine Sacramentary":

    Quote
    The oldest source of liturgical texts of the Roman Rite is a manuscript in the library of the cathedral chapter of Verona in northern Italy (Cod. Bibl. Capit. Veron. 80), commonly known as “the Leonine Sacramentary,” a collection of these libelli Missarum originally made in Rome itself. Its dating and raison d’etre have been the subject of a huge amount deal of scholarly debate; the 1966 critical edition by Dom Leo Mohlberg OSB includes a bibliography on just the question of the dating, with over 80 entries. Broadly speaking, the Verona manuscript seems to be a copy made in the first quarter of the 7th century of a collection made about 40 years earlier. The name “Leonine Sacramentary” is essentially a fancy of its discoverer, a canon of Verona named Giuseppe Bianchini (1704-64), who was in his time a highly respected scholar of Christian antiquity.

    The collection is in every way extremely irregular, as are many of the individual Masses it contains, several of which have multiple alternative collects, or two prefaces, while others are lacking various parts. The first three quires of the manuscript are now missing, and so if it ever had a prologue which explained why it was made, and made as such, with less rhyme or reason than one would expect as to both the contents and their arrangement, this is now lost. However, there is a conjecture which I think would well account for its wild irregularity.
    For almost 20 years in the mid-6th century, the Italian peninsula was wracked by a terrible war between the Ostrogoths, who had ruled Rome and most of Italy since 493, and the Byzantines under the Emperor Justinian, who sought to regain control of their ancient capital and the heart of the Roman Empire. Beginning in March of 537, the First Rome was besieged for a year, and most of its famous aqueducts were broken. In 546, the city was sacked, and in 549-50, subjected to another siege, at the end of which, a notable portion of the population fled. It is guessed that about fifty years later, when St Gregory the Great was, as Pope, effectively the ruler of Rome and environs under the suzerainty of Byzantium, the population was down to perhaps around 80,000, perhaps rather fewer than that, living in a city built for 1.5 million.

    Reference to the "Leonine Sacramentary" for the validity of Holy Orders is equivalent to summoning St. Hippolytus as the source of the Novus Ordo Eucharistic Prayer II. It is what Pius XII called "exaggerated and senseless antiquarianism" (Mediator Dei, 64).

    My point was that Pius XII (in Sacramentum Ordinis) defined the exact "Preface" (the ENTIRE PREFACE) that was required to effect the Sacrament of Holy Orders. That Preface was found in the Pontificale Romanum promulgated by Leo XIII that I linked to.

    Davies, and you, are assuming that because "a form" was valid in the distant past, that it must be valid now. That is not necessarily true. Pius XII stated very clearly what "the form" of the Sacrament had to be after 1947. And in his required formula, "ut" was present.

    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #31 on: September 02, 2023, 04:21:36 PM »
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  • Evidently, you did not understand the point Davies was making:

    He makes no reference to Leo XIII (nor does the Leonine Sacramentary have anything to do with Leo XIII.

    The Leonine Sacramentary (which has nothing to do with any of the Leos) was in use in the 4-7th centuries.

    He's saying that a book in the 1890's said that the form was unchanged since the Leonine Sacramentary, but that the author hadn't noticed that the "ut" had crept in.

    Sean, the "ut" did not creep in. It was in the Pontificale Romanum for centuries. To say such a thing assumes that the "Leonine Sacramentary" was some sort of infallible standard from the distant past. That is an example of the "antiquarianism" that Pius XII condemns in Mediator Dei.

    The version of the Preface in the Leonine Sacramentary should not been taken as a standard for validity of "the form" of Holy Orders after 1947. Pius XII's Sacramentum Ordinis and the Preface from the Pontificale Romanum that was in use in the time of Pius XII is the only true standard of "the form," after Sacramentum Ordinis was promulgated.


    Offline Meg

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #32 on: September 02, 2023, 04:28:55 PM »
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  • Evidently, you did not understand the point Davies was making:

    He makes no reference to Leo XIII (nor does the Leonine Sacramentary have anything to do with Leo XIII.

    The Leonine Sacramentary (which has nothing to do with any of the Leos) was in use in the 4-7th centuries.

    He's saying that a book in the 1890's said that the form was unchanged since the Leonine Sacramentary, but that the author hadn't noticed that the "ut" had crept in.

    I found an online publication of the Leonine Sacramentary, though it appears to be published by Anglicans, but maybe that doesn't matter. Anyway, page 243 of the Index at the bottom of the book gives the page numbers of the rites of ordination for priests, bishop, etc., which are on pages 122, 123.

    The introduction on page xv says that the suggested authors of the book (apparently it isn't known for sure) are: Pope Leo Magnus (+461), Pope Felix lll (+492), or Pope Gelasius (+469).

    Leonine sacramentary (archive.org)

    I couldn't understand pages 122 and 123, since it's all in Latin, but maybe someone else can. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #33 on: September 02, 2023, 04:35:41 PM »
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  • I found an online publication of the Leonine Sacramentary, though it appears to be published by Anglicans, but maybe that doesn't matter. Anyway, page 243 of the Index at the bottom of the book gives the page numbers of the rites of ordination for priests, bishop, etc., which are on pages 122, 123.

    The introduction on page xv says that the suggested authors of the book (apparently it isn't known for sure) are: Pope Leo Magnus (+461), Pope Felix lll (+492), or Pope Gelasius (+469).

    Leonine sacramentary (archive.org)

    I couldn't understand pages 122 and 123, since it's all in Latin, but maybe someone else can.

    It’s better name is the Verona Sacramentary, since it was wrongly attributed to Leo.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #34 on: September 02, 2023, 04:47:12 PM »
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  • Quote
    Pius XII stated very clearly what "the form" of the Sacrament had to be after 1947. And in his required formula, "ut" was present.
    This should settle the matter.


    Offline Angelus

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #35 on: September 02, 2023, 04:47:55 PM »
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  • I found an online publication of the Leonine Sacramentary, though it appears to be published by Anglicans, but maybe that doesn't matter. Anyway, page 243 of the Index at the bottom of the book gives the page numbers of the rites of ordination for priests, bishop, etc., which are on pages 122, 123.

    The introduction on page xv says that the suggested authors of the book (apparently it isn't known for sure) are: Pope Leo Magnus (+461), Pope Felix lll (+492), or Pope Gelasius (+469).

    Leonine sacramentary (archive.org)

    I couldn't understand pages 122 and 123, since it's all in Latin, but maybe someone else can.

    The "Leonine Sacramentary" is not a perfect text. Do you see all the footnootes at the bottom of the pages? Do you see how some of those notes reference alternative readings of the actual words in the text? 

    These ancient docuмents are sometimes nothing but fragments with parts of pages missing. The scholars have to make assumptions in some cases. That is one of the reasons for the footnotes: to let other scholars know that the original text was ambiguous. Read the Introduction to understand how uncertain it all is. It is not to be taken as "authoritative." It is a mess, as the author explains.

    As I said, the current, authentic "form" of Priestly Holy Orders is the exact "Preface" to be found in the Pontificale Romanum used by Pius XII. The "Leonine Sacramentary" is of historical interest only.

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #36 on: September 02, 2023, 04:50:54 PM »
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  • The "Leonine Sacramentary" is not a perfect text. Do you see all the footnootes at the bottom of the pages? Do you see how some of those notes reference alternative readings of the actual words in the text?

    These ancient docuмents are sometimes nothing but fragments with parts of pages missing. The scholars have to make assumptions in some cases. That is one of the reasons for the footnotes: to let other scholars know that the original text was ambiguous. Read the Introduction to understand how uncertain it all is. It is not to be taken as "authoritative." It is a mess, as the author explains.

    As I said, the current, authentic "form" of Priestly Holy Orders is the exact "Preface" to be found in the Pontificale Romanum used by Pius XII. The "Leonine Sacramentary" is of historical interest only.

    If you want to dismiss it, that's fine. I expected that. But others here may be interested in seeing the text that was referred to. 
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #37 on: September 02, 2023, 06:05:04 PM »
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  • This should settle the matter.

    It certainly settles the matter because all that's needed is positive doubt.  Nobody's saying we can prove the Rite is invalid, as the authority of the Church would be required to determine that with certainty.  But when the essential form has been CHANGED by a completely unreliable and questionable "authority", that suffices to establish positive doubt.  Given the positive doubt criterion, where that suffices to treat the Sacrament as invalid in the practical order, the burden of proof is 100% on the side of those who assert that it's valid.  I know that I'm not going to put my soul at risk by going to Confession to NO-ordained priests.  But if Sean Johnson or others want to believe that it's certainly valid, well, that's their choice, and more power to them.  But, you know what, I'll bet that Johnson would never put his money where his mouth is and start going to Confession to Novus Ordo priests.


    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #38 on: September 02, 2023, 06:16:42 PM »
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  • It certainly settles the matter because all that's needed is positive doubt.  Nobody's saying we can prove the Rite is invalid, as the authority of the Church would be required to determine that with certainty.  But when the essential form has been CHANGED by a completely unreliable and questionable "authority", that suffices to establish positive doubt.  Given the positive doubt criterion, where that suffices to treat the Sacrament as invalid in the practical order, the burden of proof is 100% on the side of those who assert that it's valid.  I know that I'm not going to put my soul at risk by going to Confession to NO-ordained priests.  But if Sean Johnson or others want to believe that it's certainly valid, well, that's their choice, and more power to them.  But, you know what, I'll bet that Johnson would never put his money where his mouth is and start going to Confession to Novus Ordo priests.

    If you weren't such a deceiving dumbass, you'd have recalled this from me way back at post #3:

    "The concern regarding the new rite of priestly ordination lays elsewhere."
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Ladislaus

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #39 on: September 02, 2023, 06:41:47 PM »
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  • The “missing ut = invalidity” argument is a figment of your imagination.

    Ut is basically a conjunction with no inherent meaning in context.

    Translated literally, ut means “in order that.”

    So here is a sentence comparison, with and without it:

    1) I bought rice, in order that we can eat.

    2) I bought rice to eat.

    The presence or absence of ut makes no difference to the meaning.

    The concern regarding the new rite of priestly ordination lays elsewhere.

    Post #3, since Johnson referred to it.  Utterly idiotic.

    "Ut is basically a conjunction with no inherent meaning in context."

    :laugh1: :laugh1: :laugh1:

    "Ut" is a meaningless word, eh?  Must have been as much asleep in Latin class as you were in the Logic class.

    You deceptively call it a "conjunction", as if it were merely saying A AND B.  Sure, in that case, there's no much difference between a list:  A, B. and A AND B.

    But the term "so that" explicitly refers to cause and effect.  A so that B.  A causes B.  B is the EFFECT of A.  It's extremely significant, your absurd example notwithstanding.  But even your example is dumb.

    1) I bought rice in order that we can eat.
    2) I bought rice.

    Does #2 mean that you're going to eat the rice?  No.  I could have bought rice because I dropped my cell phone into the toilet and want to use the rice to dry it out.  No eating involved.  There's no way that buying rice necessarily means eating.  So with your own example you just shot yourself in the face.

    In any case, your example is terrible, because in the second one you omit the effect or the intent of buying the rice, whereas at least in the Novus Ordo Rite it's mentioned.

    But let's extend your example to make it more apropos to the NO Rite.

    1) I bought rice for us to eat.
    2) I bought rice.  Let's eat.

    In #1 we're clearly eating the rice.  In #2, you bought rice (just got back from the store), but we're going to eat spaghetti now.  Rice is for tomorrow.  And the #2 is basically saying, "I'm back from the store now (having bought rice for tomorrow), so, since I'm back, we can eat our spaghetti dinner."  Or I'm back from buying rice in an attempt to save my wet cell phone, so now we can eat our steak dinner.

    Does #2 imply that you're going to eat the rice?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  But it's not certain.  And it's not unequivocally certain whether we're going to now eat the rice that I just bought.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #40 on: September 02, 2023, 09:14:29 PM »
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  • Quote
    But let's extend your example to make it more apropos to the NO Rite.

    1) I bought rice for us to eat.
    2) I bought rice.  Let's eat.

    In #1 we're clearly eating the rice.  In #2, you bought rice (just got back from the store), but we're going to eat spaghetti now.  Rice is for tomorrow.  And the #2 is basically saying, "I'm back from the store now (having bought rice for tomorrow), so, since I'm back, we can eat our spaghetti dinner."  Or I'm back from buying rice in an attempt to save my wet cell phone, so now we can eat our steak dinner.

    Does #2 imply that you're going to eat the rice?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  But it's not certain.  And it's not unequivocally certain whether we're going to now eat the rice that I just bought.
    Again, logic and basic english grammar settles the matter.



    The V2 satanists removed the "ut" to destroy the rite's inherently valid form/intention of the prayer.  Removing the "ut" puts the onus on the minister (i.e. fake bishops consecrated in the fake new rite) to provide the proper intention necessary for validity.  Of course, the really, really evil bishops won't/don't want to consecrate/ordain, so they'll use the new rite to mimic/mock God, all the while, being able to say, "Well, it's still (possibly) valid...(if you provide the proper intention)".



    They did the same thing to the consecration of the mass, which +Ottaviani says is now a "narration" of the Last Supper, instead of the priest's FIRST PERSON consecration.  Thus, without the orthodox consecration formula, the new rite no longer has an inherently valid formula, and is dependent upon the minister to supply the proper intention.


    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #41 on: September 03, 2023, 07:18:34 AM »
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  • It certainly settles the matter because all that's needed is positive doubt. 
    This is what all self-professed Traditional Catholics should at least think about any New Rite.  But that might mean one cannot go to one's nearest FSSP, ICKSP or even SSPX mass.  Or believe their favorite NO-ordained priest on the internet is not truly a priest.

    When it comes to those part of the Resistance, I am confused why they are even considering the possibility that the New Rite is valid when it is my understanding that they always conditionally ordain.

    Offline AnthonyPadua

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    Re: Novus Ordo ordination done by traditional rite bishop
    « Reply #42 on: September 03, 2023, 07:24:50 AM »
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  • This is what all self-professed Traditional Catholics should at least think about any New Rite.  But that might mean one cannot go to one's nearest FSSP, ICKSP or even SSPX mass.  Or believe their favorite NO-ordained priest on the internet is not truly a priest.
    I don't not wish to risk my soul on this 'maybe' so I will simply avoid NO 'priests'.