Author Topic: Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation" (Read 2249 times)

SJB · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2014, 01:49:42 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: BitDudeX
Quote from: bowler
The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.

Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.

Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it, realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.

That explains quite a bit, bowler. You seem to have a propensity for becoming a brainwashed idiot. Now you're just a different type of brainwashed idiot.

LOL that's funny. To explain what SJB just said, for those that think it is an insult:

The Italians make jokes about the slightest sign of a trait in someone, even people they don't know at all. They are just a happy people and love to laugh about life. You will never however, see an Italian make a joke about a real defect in someone. When no one says any jokes about them, the Italians start to worry if there is something really wrong with them.

Thanks for the joke SJB.

I'm not Italian, idiot. :rolleyes:

Petertherock · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2014, 06:31:34 PM »

I have been to a traditional chapel where the monks and nuns both sing in the choir. There was nothing more beautiful than the men and women alternating with each other.

bowler · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2014, 10:26:03 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: BitDudeX
Quote from: bowler
The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.

Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.

Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it, realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.

That explains quite a bit, bowler. You seem to have a propensity for becoming a brainwashed idiot. Now you're just a different type of brainwashed idiot.

LOL that's funny. To explain what SJB just said, for those that think it is an insult:

The Italians make jokes about the slightest sign of a trait in someone, even people they don't know at all. They are just a happy people and love to laugh about life. You will never however, see an Italian make a joke about a real defect in someone. When no one says any jokes about them, the Italians start to worry if there is something really wrong with them.

Thanks for the joke SJB.

I'm not Italian, idiot. :rolleyes:

This is the third time I've responded to you with this same "Italian story" and you still do not get it. It is I who does not make jokes or insults about people who really are defective.

bowler · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2014, 02:42:36 AM »

The first educational reply is brought forward out of the static heap :

Quote from: Ladislaus

Ah, and here's the elephant in the room. Pius XII completely contradicted St. Pius X on this matter, proving once again how he was the WATERSHED transitional Pope into Vatican II. Whether it was this, or the Bugnini experimentations, or the condemnation of Father Feeney, or the promotion of NFP and of evolution, Pius XII contributed mightily to the Church's deline into full-blown modernism.

St. Pius X declared that by the very nature of liturgical office, being as it was clerical and therefore ultimately an extension of Holy Orders, choirs in Solemn Mass could not admit of women. So did the nature of the Liturgy change by the time of Pius XII that this would be permitted?

I for one, if I were pope, would require that those who exercise these functions / offices be given the appropriate MINOR ORDER for these things. In the Eastern Rite, you have CANTOR; in the Western Rite, you have LECTOR ... both essentially being the same minor order. Similarly, altar boys should ascend the steps should be in the MINOR ORDER of acolyte; whereas others in the sanctuary should be at least PORTERS.

At some point we lost the meaning of the minor orders and turned them into mere rituals, empty rituals, on the way to the Priesthood. I say empty rituals because even though, for instance, only the Lector should be able to chant the Epistle at Mass, any cleric was suddenly allowed to do so, etc. -- rendering the order of Lector hollow and meaningless.

And this transitions to Vatican II because these "offices" then really becomes just FUNCTIONS (aka "Ministries" as V2 calls them) rather than as extensions of Holy Orders.

With that said, I could see women / girls perhaps singing chant, etc. ... under certain circuмstances, during a Missa Cantata, since the Missa Cantata is not technically a Solemn Mass but rather a Low Mass, and the singing would just be for aesthetic purposes and not have an actual direct liturgical role in the Mass ... provided that all the responses were actually made by the altar server, which would be the actual official liturgical responses, while the singing would serve as window dressing. That's a VERY IMPORTANT distinction.

This isn't about men or women per se but about LITURGICAL THEOLOGY, and admitting women to sing during Solemn Mass is a major shift in LITURGICAL THEOLOGY that leads to concepts in the Novus Ordo Missae wherein various actions are no longer properly liturgical but just "functions" and "ministries" (services). Nor is it about some "concupiscence" thing to which Pius XII alludes by requiring that men and women be separated in choirs.

bowler · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2014, 02:43:45 AM »

And the second one

Quote from: Ladislaus

Liturgical chant has TWO functions, a primary and a secondary (not unlike the ends of marriage LOL).

Primary: it's a liturgical act, performed by the Church, in the worship of God.

Secondary: it elevates the minds and hearts of the faithful to God.

And the primary end can never be subordinated to the secondary.

Moving your mouth to act like you're doing something doesn't figure in. In fact, most congregation chant sounds terrible and is distracting if not downright disturbing.

I recall a gentleman at a Traditional chapel in Akron OH who bellows out the Tantum Ergo during benediction, so loud that it drowns everyone else out, and due to not knowing any Latin he pronounces it "RANTRUM RERGO". If you WERE in fact to create a 3rd end called "Participation of the Faithful" ... which IMO doesn't exist, that too must be subordinated to the Secondary End (and obviously the Primary), i.e. if it's bad or disedifying it should not be done (cf. St. Pius X saying that if it's not done well it shouldn't be done at all).

There's no need for people to yammer and to move their mouths to enhance some kind of experience of the Mass. In fact, doing things like that can actually distract one from contemplation and from the elevation of mind and soul. If have both sung in Gregorian scholas and have been in attendance during Masses where it was very well done by a scholar cantorum, and I tell you that I would MUCH rather listen than to sing.

This idea that to be involved in the Mass one has to yammer and move one's mouth is all liturgical modernism that transitions nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology.

bowler · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2014, 03:31:26 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

St. Pius X declared that by the very nature of liturgical office, being as it was clerical and therefore ultimately an extension of Holy Orders, choirs in Solemn Mass could not admit of women.......

With that said, I could see women / girls perhaps singing chant, etc. ... under certain circuмstances, during a Missa Cantata, since the Missa Cantata is not technically a Solemn Mass but rather a Low Mass, and the singing would just be for aesthetic purposes and not have an actual direct liturgical role in the Mass

The Missa Cantata is a relatively new mass, from the 18th century, while the Low Mass is over 1000 years old. How do you conclude that women can sing at Misa Cantatas and Low mass? I understand it, women were never allowed to respond aloud at mass at all, and the Low Mass was always a silent mass for both men and women.

bowler · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2014, 03:56:18 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

This idea that to be involved in the Mass one has to yammer and move one's mouth is all liturgical modernism that transitions nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology.

It appears that by allowing women to sing in a chorus, thereby allowing them to make aloud the mass responses of a Missa Cantata, it opened the door for all the women in the congregation to respond aloud, which set up the Dialogue Mass for women, which "transitioned nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology".

It is my contention that were it not for women, the effeminate and feelings oriented priests who took over the priesthood (the takeover, the effeminizing of the mass, started years before the Novus Ordo), could not have succeeded AT ALL. Had men not been cast aside and replaced by women, the "Novus Ordo" would have died a quick death.

I contend that in the SSPX's obvious FORCED implementation of the Dialogue Mass that is slowly being implemented, is 1964 all over again. Remember, ALL the clergy were celebrating the traditional Latin mass then, they were just like the SSPX which celebrates the 1962 missal. Within the SSPX, we will once again experience 1964 and on, again with the women supplying the "feelings" to go along with the "beautiful" changes. The SSPX will end in the same mess as the Novus Ordo, and the children that went through it will end up leaving the Church when they reach their teens to adulthood.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:18:57 AM »

.

While a men's schola and Gregorian Chant is great (when done properly and well-rehearsed) and two, three or four part men's polyphony especially when the harmony is CLOSE is simply incomparable, at the same time, you need to have the men showing up to sing, or you won't have any singing.

In every trad chapel I've known, there is a common theme going on with NovusOrdo parishes: women and girls are the majority of participants when it comes to singing.

In many places, as far as I know, if the priest were to say, "no more girls and no more women in the choir," it would be equivalent to saying "no more choir."

Therefore, in my view, the real problem is,

How Do You Get the Men to Show Up?

Another difficulty is, when you put out the word that more volunteers are needed to sing in the choir, the new people who respond are all too often people who cannot hear and repeat the proper pitches. They might make a sound that approximates 'singing' but they are off pitch (sing the wrong notes) and can't seem to hear the difference between the right pitch and the wrong one.

And then there is the very strange phenomenon, that for the closing hymn or "recessional" after Mass is finished, if a commonly known piece is chosen like "Hail Holy Queen," or "Holy God We Praise Thy Name," or (during Christmas season) "Angels We Have Heard on High," it sounds like the entire congregation knows how to sing just fine (with a few stray voices in the mix).

So you have people who know how to sing who never come and ask to help the choir, and you have people who offer their help and really do try to sing, but they're not capable of singing.

.

bowler · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2014, 07:49:58 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

.

In many places, as far as I know, if the priest were to say, "no more girls and no more women in the choir," it would be equivalent to saying "no more choir."

If one accepts the principles that:

Quote

It appears that by Pius XII in 1958 opening a crack allowing women to sing in a chorus, he thereby opened the door them to vocalizing aloud the mass responses of a Missa Cantata, and it opened the door for all the women in the congregation to respond aloud, which set up the Dialogue Mass for women, which "transitioned nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology". All of which ended in all the young people loosing the faith, specially the males.

Quote

AND that when women are no longer permitted to sing, then the men and boys will feel obligated to fill the void. Men being men, are by nature problem solvers and soldiers willing to sacrifice their lives for others. Singing in the choir is not a big sacrifice.

THE PROBLEM IS not that there is a shortage of men, but that the parishioner base is too small to have a choir. Just the same as it is too small a congregation to have a marble church. We are in exile people, this is not a time to be having burdensome dreams of cathedral masses. If you have a chapel of 40-80 people it is very hard to have a choir. My chapel is pretty common, and 1/3 of the congregation are children, and 25% are elderly people. That does not leave many men to sing. The problem is one of parishioner base. Just live with it.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:12:35 AM »

Quote from: Petertherock

I have been to a traditional chapel where the monks and nuns both sing in the choir. There was nothing more beautiful than the men and women alternating with each other.

Beauty IMO is not the primary consideration. If you look at the teaching of St. Pius X, he states that the chanting is a LITURGICAL function, and since liturgical functions are all clerical, in other words an extension of Holy Orders, the question is whether women should on those grounds, on the grounds of liturgical theology, be admitted to singing in choirs. I do not dispute that such as what you describe might be aesthetically pleasing.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #25 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:22:15 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Ladislaus

St. Pius X declared that by the very nature of liturgical office, being as it was clerical and therefore ultimately an extension of Holy Orders, choirs in Solemn Mass could not admit of women.......

With that said, I could see women / girls perhaps singing chant, etc. ... under certain circuмstances, during a Missa Cantata, since the Missa Cantata is not technically a Solemn Mass but rather a Low Mass, and the singing would just be for aesthetic purposes and not have an actual direct liturgical role in the Mass

The Missa Cantata is a relatively new mass, from the 18th century, while the Low Mass is over 1000 years old. How do you conclude that women can sing at Misa Cantatas and Low mass? I understand it, women were never allowed to respond aloud at mass at all, and the Low Mass was always a silent mass for both men and women.

I agree. Missa Cantata is really just a Low Mass with some singing. It's not a Solemn Mass. I don't think that there's anything wrong, per se, with having people (even women, or the congregation) sing during Low Masses. What's important is that it be made clear that the singing does not have a liturgical function in such a Mass (if the singing be done by women for instance). In a Solemn Mass, the singing is definitely Liturgical in nature, while the singing at a Missa Cantata is not ... except when it's done in the Sanctuary by the sacred ministers. As long as the distinction remains clear, congregational and choir singing (including with women) can, if properly governed, be OK. But the minute you start having it appear as if the lay choir and the congregation have assumed properly liturgical function, that must be put to a stop immediately ... since it leads right to Vatican II Novus Ordo Missae liturgical theology, where the secondary aspects become dominant (e.g. participation of the faithful) over the primary aspect (official worship of God performed by THE CHURCH).

Now, on the other hand, I strenuously object to the so-called "Dialogue" Masses, because it makes it seem as if the entire congregation, including women, are actually taking on the role of the altar server or acolyte. To me that crosses a line.

Even in a sung Missa Cantata, I believe that this can get blurred when the choir responds to the priest as an altar server would. I think that those parts should be eliminated unless the choir meets the standards laid out by St. Pius X.

Pius XII with what seemed like an innocuous comment really undermined traditional liturgical theology.

bowler · « **Reply #26 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:53:53 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

Even in a sung Missa Cantata, I believe that this can get blurred when the choir responds to the priest as an altar server would. I think that those parts should be eliminated unless the choir meets the standards laid out by St. Pius X.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. In the SSPX chapels I've gone to, the women in the choir (and in the pews) respond with the:

Et cuм spiritu tuo
Habemus a Domino....
Credo singing
Kyrie singing
Agnus Dei singing

Are not those the liturgical functions that you say "blurred when the choir responds to the priest"?

Once you have the women singing these responses from the choir and the pulpit, as they do, then you practically already have the Dialogue mass in the Missa Cantata, and the transition into the effeminization (the take over of the women and the exit of men) of the Novus Ordo.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #27 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:56:28 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Ladislaus

This idea that to be involved in the Mass one has to yammer and move one's mouth is all liturgical modernism that transitions nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology.

It appears that by allowing women to sing in a chorus, thereby allowing them to make aloud the mass responses of a Missa Cantata, it opened the door for all the women in the congregation to respond aloud, which set up the Dialogue Mass for women, which "transitioned nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology".

You're right. I think that the choir, especially when including women, should be forbidden even in the Missa Cantata from making responses that would be "proper to the sacred ministers", as St. Pius X put it. In other words, when the Priest says, "Dominus Vobiscuм", no choir consisting of women should sing in response "Et cuм Spiritu Tuo". Now, during a Missa Cantata, the altar servers are still supposed to say, "Et cuм Spiritu Tuo", and that would in fact be the official Liturgical response, but even with that being the case, allowing a choir that does not meet the standards put forward by St. Pius X to sing those responses clearly starts to blur the line. I think that it's probably OK for the choir to sing things like the Introit and the Kyrie and the Gloria, since to me IMO it's quite obvious that the official liturgical version of that is the PRIEST saying it at the altar, and not what's sung by the choir. If I recall the rubrics correctly, in a Missa Cantata, the priest says the Gloria, for instance, in spoken tone, at the altar. But in a Solemn Mass I believe that the priest just intones it and then can sit down without reciting the Gloria himself ... so that the official liturgical version is the one being sung by the choir. Thus the distinction. But someone can correct me if I'm wrong, since it's been 20 years since I was at the seminary and in attendance at Solemn Masses.

Quote

It is my contention that were it not for women, the effeminate and feelings oriented priests who took over the priesthood (the takeover, the effeminizing of the mass, started years before the Novus Ordo), could not have succeeded AT ALL. Had men not been cast aside and replaced by women, the "Novus Ordo" would have died a quick death.

It's not just women either, but also lay men. It's a declericalization of the liturgy intended to erode Holy Orders and liturgical theology and the theology of the priesthood and to blur the line between priests/clerics and lay people. That's why I would like to go beyond even what St. Pius X did and restore the conferral of Minor Orders upon people who would exercise such liturgical functions. At risk of sounding a bit like an "antiquarianist", the Minor Orders conferred OFFICIAL LITURGICAL ROLES on people, making it clear that by exercising these functions, by commission from the Church, they were participating in an extension of Holy Orders. Minor Orders have since become purely ceremonial. As I mentioned, even among clerics, it used to be that one needed to be a Lector to chant the Epistle, but someone insidiously changed that to allow any tonsured cleric to sing the Epistle. That guts the meaning of the Order of Lector.

Quote

I contend that in the SSPX's obvious FORCED implementation of the Dialogue Mass that is slowly being implemented, is 1964 all over again. Remember, ALL the clergy were celebrating the traditional Latin mass then, they were just like the SSPX which celebrates the 1962 missal. Within the SSPX, we will once again experience 1964 and on, again with the women supplying the "feelings" to go along with the "beautiful" changes. The SSPX will end in the same mess as the Novus Ordo, and the children that went through it will end up leaving the Church when they reach their teens to adulthood.

I agree. As I mentioned above, Dialogue Masses erode traditional liturgical theology.

Oh, and another abusive custom that I absolutely detest is that when the priest does not have a male altar server, a woman would say the Mass responses, albeit from outside the sanctuary ... as if being outside the sanctuary means anything. She is STILL taking the place of the Church in making those responses and is consequently assuming a LITURGICAL ROLE, i.e. acting like a cleric. Only clerics can OFFICIALLY REPRESENT the Church in the public worship of God. In other words, it was deemed MORE IMPORTANT to have "alternating dialogue" than that an official clerical representative of the Church make the responses that represent the Church, subverting once again the primary function of liturgy to secondary considerations.

People clearly do not understand traditional liturgical theology anymore.

This isn't just about modes of participation in the Sacred Liturgy of the Church ("liturgy" by the way is a term that refers to the official worship of God by the CHURCH). It's MUCH MORE FUNDAMENTAL than all that; it's about our understanding of WHAT Sacred Liturgy is and what it is not. And the line-blurring that started long ago and continues to happen in the SSPX is contributing to all that.

As I've said on other issues, you'd be an idiot to think that Vatican II happened overnight, that all theologians in 1961 were absolutely orthodox and Traditional, but that in 1962 these were all hertics. It's ridiculous and absurd. Sorry, LoT, SJB, and Ambrose.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #28 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:59:23 AM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: Ladislaus

Even in a sung Missa Cantata, I believe that this can get blurred when the choir responds to the priest as an altar server would. I think that those parts should be eliminated unless the choir meets the standards laid out by St. Pius X.

Yes, this is what I'm talking about. In the SSPX chapels I've gone to, the women in the choir (and in the pews) respond with the:

Et cuм spiritu tuo
Habemus a Domino....
Credo singing
Kyrie singing
Agnus Dei singing

Are not those the liturgical functions that you say "blurred when the choir responds to the priest"?

Once you have the women singing these responses from the choir and the pulpit, as they do, then you practically already have the Dialogue mass in the Missa Cantata, and the transition into the effeminization (the take over of the women and the exit of men) of the Novus Ordo.

I would only distinguish between responses and things like the Gloria and Credo. Otherwise, I agree. It's more than just about effeminization, though; it's about LAICIZATION. When it was limited to men, there was still a bit of a sense that it's kind of a priestly thing to do liturgical functions ... and so for that reason was it limited to men. But I'm not content to limiting it to men, but feel strongly that it should be limited to CLERICS in the appropriate Minor Orders.