Author Topic: Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation" (Read 2404 times)

SJB · « **Reply #15 on:** February 11, 2014, 01:49:42 PM »

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: BitDudeX
Quote from: bowler
The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.

Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.

Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it, realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.

That explains quite a bit, bowler. You seem to have a propensity for becoming a brainwashed idiot. Now you're just a different type of brainwashed idiot.

LOL that's funny. To explain what SJB just said, for those that think it is an insult:

The Italians make jokes about the slightest sign of a trait in someone, even people they don't know at all. They are just a happy people and love to laugh about life. You will never however, see an Italian make a joke about a real defect in someone. When no one says any jokes about them, the Italians start to worry if there is something really wrong with them.

Thanks for the joke SJB.

I'm not Italian, idiot. :rolleyes:

Petertherock · « **Reply #16 on:** February 11, 2014, 06:31:34 PM »

I have been to a traditional chapel where the monks and nuns both sing in the choir. There was nothing more beautiful than the men and women alternating with each other.

bowler · « **Reply #17 on:** February 11, 2014, 10:26:03 PM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: bowler
Quote from: SJB
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: BitDudeX
Quote from: bowler
The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.

Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.

Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it, realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.

That explains quite a bit, bowler. You seem to have a propensity for becoming a brainwashed idiot. Now you're just a different type of brainwashed idiot.

LOL that's funny. To explain what SJB just said, for those that think it is an insult:

The Italians make jokes about the slightest sign of a trait in someone, even people they don't know at all. They are just a happy people and love to laugh about life. You will never however, see an Italian make a joke about a real defect in someone. When no one says any jokes about them, the Italians start to worry if there is something really wrong with them.

Thanks for the joke SJB.

I'm not Italian, idiot. :rolleyes:

This is the third time I've responded to you with this same "Italian story" and you still do not get it. It is I who does not make jokes or insults about people who really are defective.

bowler · « **Reply #18 on:** February 12, 2014, 02:42:36 AM »

The first educational reply is brought forward out of the static heap :

Quote from: Ladislaus

Ah, and here's the elephant in the room. Pius XII completely contradicted St. Pius X on this matter, proving once again how he was the WATERSHED transitional Pope into Vatican II. Whether it was this, or the Bugnini experimentations, or the condemnation of Father Feeney, or the promotion of NFP and of evolution, Pius XII contributed mightily to the Church's deline into full-blown modernism.

St. Pius X declared that by the very nature of liturgical office, being as it was clerical and therefore ultimately an extension of Holy Orders, choirs in Solemn Mass could not admit of women. So did the nature of the Liturgy change by the time of Pius XII that this would be permitted?

I for one, if I were pope, would require that those who exercise these functions / offices be given the appropriate MINOR ORDER for these things. In the Eastern Rite, you have CANTOR; in the Western Rite, you have LECTOR ... both essentially being the same minor order. Similarly, altar boys should ascend the steps should be in the MINOR ORDER of acolyte; whereas others in the sanctuary should be at least PORTERS.

At some point we lost the meaning of the minor orders and turned them into mere rituals, empty rituals, on the way to the Priesthood. I say empty rituals because even though, for instance, only the Lector should be able to chant the Epistle at Mass, any cleric was suddenly allowed to do so, etc. -- rendering the order of Lector hollow and meaningless.

And this transitions to Vatican II because these "offices" then really becomes just FUNCTIONS (aka "Ministries" as V2 calls them) rather than as extensions of Holy Orders.

With that said, I could see women / girls perhaps singing chant, etc. ... under certain circuмstances, during a Missa Cantata, since the Missa Cantata is not technically a Solemn Mass but rather a Low Mass, and the singing would just be for aesthetic purposes and not have an actual direct liturgical role in the Mass ... provided that all the responses were actually made by the altar server, which would be the actual official liturgical responses, while the singing would serve as window dressing. That's a VERY IMPORTANT distinction.

This isn't about men or women per se but about LITURGICAL THEOLOGY, and admitting women to sing during Solemn Mass is a major shift in LITURGICAL THEOLOGY that leads to concepts in the Novus Ordo Missae wherein various actions are no longer properly liturgical but just "functions" and "ministries" (services). Nor is it about some "concupiscence" thing to which Pius XII alludes by requiring that men and women be separated in choirs.

bowler · « **Reply #19 on:** February 12, 2014, 02:43:45 AM »

And the second one

Quote from: Ladislaus

Liturgical chant has TWO functions, a primary and a secondary (not unlike the ends of marriage LOL).

Primary: it's a liturgical act, performed by the Church, in the worship of God.

Secondary: it elevates the minds and hearts of the faithful to God.

And the primary end can never be subordinated to the secondary.

Moving your mouth to act like you're doing something doesn't figure in. In fact, most congregation chant sounds terrible and is distracting if not downright disturbing.

I recall a gentleman at a Traditional chapel in Akron OH who bellows out the Tantum Ergo during benediction, so loud that it drowns everyone else out, and due to not knowing any Latin he pronounces it "RANTRUM RERGO". If you WERE in fact to create a 3rd end called "Participation of the Faithful" ... which IMO doesn't exist, that too must be subordinated to the Secondary End (and obviously the Primary), i.e. if it's bad or disedifying it should not be done (cf. St. Pius X saying that if it's not done well it shouldn't be done at all).

There's no need for people to yammer and to move their mouths to enhance some kind of experience of the Mass. In fact, doing things like that can actually distract one from contemplation and from the elevation of mind and soul. If have both sung in Gregorian scholas and have been in attendance during Masses where it was very well done by a scholar cantorum, and I tell you that I would MUCH rather listen than to sing.

This idea that to be involved in the Mass one has to yammer and move one's mouth is all liturgical modernism that transitions nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology.