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Author Topic: Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation"  (Read 2400 times)

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Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation"
« Reply #5 on: February 11, 2014, 11:38:13 AM »
Quote from: bowler
The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.




Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.

Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation"
« Reply #6 on: February 11, 2014, 11:40:33 AM »
From the thread - "Dialogue Mass - Women Will Take Over"

Quote from: bowler
I was going to title this thread "Dialogue Mass - Ignoring the Elephant in the Room", but I decided the title above was more precise.

Below is an excellent article and  the only article I could find by the SSPX about the idea of the Dialogue Low Mass replacing the Low mass custom in English speaking countries, and it is against the novelty. The article is written by Rev Fr. Edward Black, District Superior SSPX Austrailia and it comes from the link:
http://credidimus.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/dialogue-mass/

Now, here is the "elephant in the room" that Fr. Black does not mention, Women were never allowed to sing in the chorus or the Church till the late 20th century. To be precise:

Girls or women could not be members of any church choir (Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 17 Sept. 1897).

3964. (Trujillo, Peru.) Are women and girls to be
allowed to sing inside or outside of the choir in any
church during high Mass ? R. An abuse to be prudently
and speedily done away with. 17th September, 1897. (Catholic Church Music, by Richard Terry 1907, http://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/terry.pdf )

Pius X re-emphasised this prohibition on the ground that women were not permitted to fulfil any liturgical function (Motu proprio ‘De musica sacra’, 1903).
“Women should not be part of a choir; they belong to the ranks of the laity. Separate women's choirs too are totally forbidden, except for serious reasons and with permission of the bishop”
(Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 22 Nov. 1907).

“Any mixed choir of men and women, even if they stand far from the sanctuary, is totally forbidden”
(Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 18 Dec. 1908).

Pius XII cautiously sanctioned female choristers, though only ‘outside the p r e s b y t ery or the altar precincts’ (‘Instructio de musica sacra’, AAS 48 [1956] 658).

Now, that means that the function of singing (and responding verbally) belongs only to men. It is well known that in the Novus Ordo mass(which is a Dialogue Mass), the women have taken over the masses with their responding and singing, and the few men left, are silent. This should come as no surprise, as men are not inclined to sing and respond on command. In the old days, the choir would contain all of the men who were inclined to sing, as they were needed. Just look around at the men singing among the laity, really singing, and then rmember that the women in the choir do not belong there. Those few men singing will scaresly be enough to substitue for the women in the choir! That leaves the entire congregation silent, for women were not allowed to sing, and men do not sing.

If the Dialogue mass were performed with only men responding, it would quickly die out, as few men would respond, hence the dialogue mass never existed in the history of the Church, and only exists (the Novus Ordo is a dialogue mass) because of the womens responding.



Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation"
« Reply #7 on: February 11, 2014, 11:43:27 AM »
Quote from: BitDudeX
Quote from: bowler
The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.




Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.


Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it,  realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.


Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation"
« Reply #8 on: February 11, 2014, 11:51:41 AM »
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: BitDudeX
Quote from: bowler
The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.




Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.


Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it,  realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.



But I dont listen to led Zepelin or Jimi Hendrix at all.
They are horrible.
>Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. T
I am not a fan of the novus ordo. I just don't see anything wrong with women singing during a high mass.


Offline SJB

Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation"
« Reply #9 on: February 11, 2014, 11:55:01 AM »
Quote from: bowler
Quote from: BitDudeX
Quote from: bowler
The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.




Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.


Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it,  realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.



That explains quite a bit, bowler. You seem to have a propensity for becoming a brainwashed idiot. Now you're just a different type of brainwashed idiot.