Quote from: Matthew

Quote from: hansel

Better yet, how about the lay people follow along in their Missals and leave the singing as Neil has aptly stated to the professionals in the choir who are following the Director?

I'm sorry, but that is not the mind of the Church.

The Church doesn't think it's "better yet" for the Faithful to read along their missals and leave singing to "the professionals".

That's the beauty of Gregorian Chant -- it doesn't take a music major to sing it. Anyone that can carry a tune can sing it. I'm not a music major myself; I can only learn melodies by ear.

"He who sings prays twice."

St. Pius X had to start a revival of true Gregorian Chant, because Church music had gotten out of hand. Probably too many professionals, too many soloists, too many "performances".

The mind of the Church is for all of us to sing together. Remember, it edifies everyone else present to be part of such a group.

The Church would prefer everyone sings Gregorian chant, rather than a few elite Choir members sing a polyphonic Mass. This "mind of the Church" is what all the old-school SSPX priests were taught -- those under Bishop Williamson. That's what Fr. Timothy Pfeiffer pushed for at our chapel.

So wanting the Faithful to sing and participate is NOT just a European or accordista thing.

I beg to differ, Matthew.

Back in 1903, Pope Saint Pius X put out is "Motu Proprio" called Tra le Sollecitudini. Here's what it says about singing.

http://www.adoremus.org/MotuProprio.html

Quote from:  Pope Saint Pius X Moto Proprio 1903

V. The singers
12. With the exception of the melodies proper to the celebrant at the altar and to the ministers, which must be always sung in Gregorian Chant, and without accompaniment of the organ, all the rest of the liturgical chant belongs to the choir of levites, and, therefore, singers in the church, even when they are laymen, are really taking the place of the ecclesiastical choir. Hence the music rendered by them must, at least for the greater part, retain the character of choral music.

By this it is not to be understood that solos are entirely excluded. But solo singing should never predominate to such an extent as to have the greater part of the liturgical chant executed in that manner; the solo phrase should have the character or hint of a melodic projection (spunto), and be strictly bound up with the rest of the choral composition.

13. On the same principle it follows that singers in church have a real liturgical office, and that therefore women, being incapable of exercising such office, cannot be admitted to form part of the choir. Whenever, then, it is desired to employ the acute voices of sopranos and contraltos, these parts must be taken by boys, according to the most ancient usage of the Church.

14. Finally, only men of known piety and probity of life are to be admitted to form part of the choir of a church, and these men should by their modest and devout bearing during the liturgical functions show that they are worthy of the holy office they exercise. It will also be fitting that singers while singing in church wear the ecclesiastical habit and surplice, and that they be hidden behind gratings when the choir is excessively open to the public gaze.

http://www.adoremus.org/musicaesacrae.html

Pope Pius XII later says in Musicae Sacrae of 1958:

Quote from:  Pope Pius XII in Musicae Sacrae, 1958

74. Where it is impossible to have schools of singers or where there are not enough choir boys, it is allowed that "a group of men and women or girls, located in a place outside the sanctuary set apart for the exclusive use of this group, can sing the liturgical texts at Solemn Mass, as long as the men are completely separated from the women and girls and everything unbecoming is avoided. The Ordinary is bound in conscience in this matter."[26]

This completely solidifies my point. If there were to be singing, the men and women were to be SEPARATED if you couldn't find BOYS for a CHOIR.

Now there is NOTHING in these two encyclicals/motu proprios that say that the congregation should be singing during Mass. I defy you to show me where it says, nay, even where it encourages this practice.

Completely insane.

I was going to title this thread "Dialogue Mass - Ignoring the Elephant in the Room", but I decided the title above was more precise.

Below is an excellent article and  the only article I could find by the SSPX about the idea of the Dialogue Low Mass replacing the Low mass custom in English speaking countries, and it is against the novelty. The article is written by Rev Fr. Edward Black, District Superior SSPX Austrailia and it comes from the link:
http://credidimus.wordpress.com/2012/07/11/dialogue-mass/

Now, here is the "elephant in the room" that Fr. Black does not mention, Women were never allowed to sing in the chorus or the Church till the late 20th century. To be precise:

Girls or women could not be members of any church choir (Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 17 Sept. 1897).

3964. (Trujillo, Peru.) Are women and girls to be
allowed to sing inside or outside of the choir in any
church during high Mass ? R. An abuse to be prudently
and speedily done away with. 17th September, 1897. (Catholic Church Music, by Richard Terry 1907, http://media.musicasacra.com/pdf/terry.pdf )

Pius X re-emphasised this prohibition on the ground that women were not permitted to fulfil any liturgical function (Motu proprio ‘De musica sacra’, 1903).
“Women should not be part of a choir; they belong to the ranks of the laity. Separate women's choirs too are totally forbidden, except for serious reasons and with permission of the bishop”
(Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 22 Nov. 1907).

“Any mixed choir of men and women, even if they stand far from the sanctuary, is totally forbidden”
(Sacred Congregation for Liturgy, decree 18 Dec. 1908).

Pius XII cautiously sanctioned female choristers, though only ‘outside the p r e s b y t ery or the altar precincts’ (‘Instructio de musica sacra’, AAS 48 [1956] 658).

Now, that means that the function of singing (and responding verbally) belongs only to men. It is well known that in the Novus Ordo mass(which is a Dialogue Mass), the women have taken over the masses with their responding and singing, and the few men left, are silent. This should come as no surprise, as men are not inclined to sing and respond on command. In the old days, the choir would contain all of the men who were inclined to sing, as they were needed. Just look around at the men singing among the laity, really singing, and then rmember that the women in the choir do not belong there. Those few men singing will scaresly be enough to substitue for the women in the choir! That leaves the entire congregation silent, for women were not allowed to sing, and men do not sing.

If the Dialogue mass were performed with only men responding, it would quickly die out, as few men would respond, hence the dialogue mass never existed in the history of the Church, and only exists (the Novus Ordo is a dialogue mass) because of the womens responding.

Quote from: BitDudeX

Quote from: bowler

The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.

Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.

Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it,  realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: BitDudeX

Quote from: bowler

The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.

Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.

Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it,  realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.

But I dont listen to led Zepelin or Jimi Hendrix at all.
They are horrible.

Quote from: bowler

Quote from: BitDudeX

Quote from: bowler

The wrench in the works is:

That women were never allowed to sing in a church or to do the prayers out loud. Anyone advocating the congregation vocalizing the mass in common prayer, is missing the elephant in the room. The cause of the demise of the mass into the Novus Ordo is the women taking over the masses and the cause of men leaving the church.

Who cares if they "never" were allowed to sing. Change is important.

Welcome then to Vatican II! Now you know why the Novus Ordo in Europe is only attended by old women and little children. The same will happen to your Latin mass soon. It's 1963 all over again. Enjoy it, Mr. punk lover, metal lover, hip-hop lover, Minimalist, moderate trad, internet lover, Music Producer, Glitch Artist, Cryptoanarchist, ANTI-RADTRAD, Free-er .

I once listened to Jimi Hendrix, Led Zepelin, Grand Funk, and such, I just grew up and out of it,  realizing now that I was a brainwashed idiot. Maybe one day you'll realize it too.

That explains quite a bit, bowler. You seem to have a propensity for becoming a brainwashed idiot. Now you're just a different type of brainwashed idiot.