Author Topic: Wrench in the Works of Vocal "Participation" (Read 2396 times)

bowler · « **Reply #20 on:** February 12, 2014, 03:31:26 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

St. Pius X declared that by the very nature of liturgical office, being as it was clerical and therefore ultimately an extension of Holy Orders, choirs in Solemn Mass could not admit of women.......

With that said, I could see women / girls perhaps singing chant, etc. ... under certain circuмstances, during a Missa Cantata, since the Missa Cantata is not technically a Solemn Mass but rather a Low Mass, and the singing would just be for aesthetic purposes and not have an actual direct liturgical role in the Mass

The Missa Cantata is a relatively new mass, from the 18th century, while the Low Mass is over 1000 years old. How do you conclude that women can sing at Misa Cantatas and Low mass? I understand it, women were never allowed to respond aloud at mass at all, and the Low Mass was always a silent mass for both men and women.

bowler · « **Reply #21 on:** February 12, 2014, 03:56:18 AM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

This idea that to be involved in the Mass one has to yammer and move one's mouth is all liturgical modernism that transitions nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology.

It appears that by allowing women to sing in a chorus, thereby allowing them to make aloud the mass responses of a Missa Cantata, it opened the door for all the women in the congregation to respond aloud, which set up the Dialogue Mass for women, which "transitioned nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology".

It is my contention that were it not for women, the effeminate and feelings oriented priests who took over the priesthood (the takeover, the effeminizing of the mass, started years before the Novus Ordo), could not have succeeded AT ALL. Had men not been cast aside and replaced by women, the "Novus Ordo" would have died a quick death.

I contend that in the SSPX's obvious FORCED implementation of the Dialogue Mass that is slowly being implemented, is 1964 all over again. Remember, ALL the clergy were celebrating the traditional Latin mass then, they were just like the SSPX which celebrates the 1962 missal. Within the SSPX, we will once again experience 1964 and on, again with the women supplying the "feelings" to go along with the "beautiful" changes. The SSPX will end in the same mess as the Novus Ordo, and the children that went through it will end up leaving the Church when they reach their teens to adulthood.

Neil Obstat · « **Reply #22 on:** February 12, 2014, 05:18:57 AM »

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While a men's schola and Gregorian Chant is great (when done properly and well-rehearsed) and two, three or four part men's polyphony especially when the harmony is CLOSE is simply incomparable, at the same time, you need to have the men showing up to sing, or you won't have any singing.

In every trad chapel I've known, there is a common theme going on with NovusOrdo parishes: women and girls are the majority of participants when it comes to singing.

In many places, as far as I know, if the priest were to say, "no more girls and no more women in the choir," it would be equivalent to saying "no more choir."

Therefore, in my view, the real problem is,

How Do You Get the Men to Show Up?

Another difficulty is, when you put out the word that more volunteers are needed to sing in the choir, the new people who respond are all too often people who cannot hear and repeat the proper pitches. They might make a sound that approximates 'singing' but they are off pitch (sing the wrong notes) and can't seem to hear the difference between the right pitch and the wrong one.

And then there is the very strange phenomenon, that for the closing hymn or "recessional" after Mass is finished, if a commonly known piece is chosen like "Hail Holy Queen," or "Holy God We Praise Thy Name," or (during Christmas season) "Angels We Have Heard on High," it sounds like the entire congregation knows how to sing just fine (with a few stray voices in the mix).

So you have people who know how to sing who never come and ask to help the choir, and you have people who offer their help and really do try to sing, but they're not capable of singing.

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bowler · « **Reply #23 on:** February 12, 2014, 07:49:58 AM »

Quote from: Neil Obstat

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In many places, as far as I know, if the priest were to say, "no more girls and no more women in the choir," it would be equivalent to saying "no more choir."

If one accepts the principles that:

Quote

It appears that by Pius XII in 1958 opening a crack allowing women to sing in a chorus, he thereby opened the door them to vocalizing aloud the mass responses of a Missa Cantata, and it opened the door for all the women in the congregation to respond aloud, which set up the Dialogue Mass for women, which "transitioned nicely to Novus Ordo liturgical theology". All of which ended in all the young people loosing the faith, specially the males.

Quote

AND that when women are no longer permitted to sing, then the men and boys will feel obligated to fill the void. Men being men, are by nature problem solvers and soldiers willing to sacrifice their lives for others. Singing in the choir is not a big sacrifice.

THE PROBLEM IS not that there is a shortage of men, but that the parishioner base is too small to have a choir. Just the same as it is too small a congregation to have a marble church. We are in exile people, this is not a time to be having burdensome dreams of cathedral masses. If you have a chapel of 40-80 people it is very hard to have a choir. My chapel is pretty common, and 1/3 of the congregation are children, and 25% are elderly people. That does not leave many men to sing. The problem is one of parishioner base. Just live with it.

Ladislaus · « **Reply #24 on:** February 12, 2014, 08:12:35 AM »

Quote from: Petertherock

I have been to a traditional chapel where the monks and nuns both sing in the choir. There was nothing more beautiful than the men and women alternating with each other.

Beauty IMO is not the primary consideration. If you look at the teaching of St. Pius X, he states that the chanting is a LITURGICAL function, and since liturgical functions are all clerical, in other words an extension of Holy Orders, the question is whether women should on those grounds, on the grounds of liturgical theology, be admitted to singing in choirs. I do not dispute that such as what you describe might be aesthetically pleasing.