Author Topic: Worldly Catholics in the SSPX? (Read 6212 times)

Matthew · « **on:** November 10, 2011, 07:58:49 AM »

I've heard SSPX-attending Catholics criticized because some chapels have some worldly members. I'd just like to say one thing:

What in the world are the SSPX priests supposed to do when someone arrives at one of their chapels? Give them a questionnaire? Wouldn't a priest be gravely sinning to shun or refuse sacraments to spiritual beginners or those weak in their faith?

I mean, stop and think it through!

Of course worldly Catholics are shamefully dividing their allegiance between God and the world, objectively speaking, but "while there is breath there is hope", and Our Lord spoke about not crushing the bruised reed.

Our Lord said he came to save sinners. And the Catholic Church is an extension of Jesus Christ Himself. We don't call it "The Mystical Body of Christ" because it's a catchy title. It IS literally a mystical extension of His body. His saving action continues through the Church today. And Jesus didn't summarily reject sinners who were interested in repentance... Guess what? everyone attending Mass obviously has SOME level of good will to become better!

The majority of Catholics have always been worldly. That's been true since the Catholic Church was founded. That's why the Saints stand out. If heroism were commonplace, it wouldn't be heroism!

So we need to put to rest, once and for all, the notion that a perusal of the pews on Sunday can produce for us a ball of criticism that can be lobbed at the organization running the chapel. It's absolutely ridiculous and has no basis in logic, reason, or Catholicism.

Unless the organization PROMOTES worldliness -- which I doubt is the case for any traditional group around today. Trust me, the SSPX is anything but worldly in its advice! It recommends all members to TOSS the TV completely, for example. Not just "restrict viewing" or "just watch Catholic movies" -- no, members are repeatedly advised to NOT OWN a television set. SSPX Third Order (lay) members must be TV-less as one of the requirements for joining.

SJB · « **Reply #1 on:** November 10, 2011, 08:39:06 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

I've heard SSPX-attending Catholics criticized because some chapels have some worldly members. I'd just like to say one thing:

What in the world are the SSPX priests supposed to do when someone arrives at one of their chapels? Give them a questionnaire? Wouldn't a priest be gravely sinning to shun or refuse sacraments to spiritual beginners or those weak in their faith?

I mean, stop and think it through!

Of course worldly Catholics are shamefully dividing their allegiance between God and the world, objectively speaking, but "while there is breath there is hope", and Our Lord spoke about not crushing the bruised reed.

Our Lord said he came to save sinners. And the Catholic Church is an extension of Jesus Christ Himself. We don't call it "The Mystical Body of Christ" because it's a catchy title. It IS literally a mystical extension of His body. His saving action continues through the Church today. And Jesus didn't summarily reject sinners who were interested in repentance... Guess what? everyone attending Mass obviously has SOME level of good will to become better!

The majority of Catholics have always been worldly. That's been true since the Catholic Church was founded. That's why the Saints stand out. If heroism were commonplace, it wouldn't be heroism!

So we need to put to rest, once and for all, the notion that a perusal of the pews on Sunday can produce for us a ball of criticism that can be lobbed at the organization running the chapel. It's absolutely ridiculous and has no basis in logic, reason, or Catholicism.

Unless the organization PROMOTES worldliness -- which I doubt is the case for any traditional group around today. Trust me, the SSPX is anything but worldly in its advice! It recommends all members to TOSS the TV completely, for example. Not just "restrict viewing" or "just watch Catholic movies" -- no, members are repeatedly advised to NOT OWN a television set. SSPX Third Order (lay) members must be TV-less as one of the requirements for joining.

Pope Pius XII did not recommend such a thing. What about radio?

A lot of extreme liberals advise "Kill your TV" ... certainly doesn't make them more Catholic.

s2srea · « **Reply #2 on:** November 10, 2011, 08:47:33 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Pope Pius XII did not recommend such a thing. What about radio?

A lot of extreme liberals advise "Kill your TV" ... certainly doesn't make them more Catholic.

I don't think that's all you got out of his whole post is it? I think Matthew was trying to make the point that TV can be an extension and introduction of modernistic materialism into the home.

Matthew · « **Reply #3 on:** November 10, 2011, 08:58:14 AM »

SJB, is that supposed to be a rebuttal?

Advocating getting rid of the TV certainly doesn't make anyone UN-Catholic. It doesn't make them liberal either. If some "extreme liberals" advise "killing the tv", they're certainly not being extreme liberals in that particular moment, right?

I didn't say that tossing the TV makes one a non-schismatic or a good Catholic. I merely gave one example of how the SSPX is not worldly by nature.

To make things clearer for those with simple minds, here is my premise:

The SSPX is an extremely faithful, particularly healthy, and beneficial branch of the Catholic Church, and as such, should be expected to have the same weaknesses the Catholic Church has endured throughout the ages, particularly in Her human element.

Is SJB's response (above) a typical example of how cloudy and befuddled most sedevacantists' minds are?

What would the SSPX have to start doing to convince you its sole mission is to preserve the full integrity of the Catholic Priesthood, and by extension, the Catholic Faith?

SJB: (in a deep, raspy voice): It should DIIIIIIE!

I see. So you hate the SSPX. How sweet.

Yes, I realize I put words in your mouth. Well, please tell us (if my guess was wrong), what WOULD you say the SSPX should do with its parishioners?

Lemme guess...tell them all there's no Pope, and THAT will extract "the world" from those materialistic and worldly parishioners! Because we all know the Sedevacantist world doesn't have any of those :rolleyes:

Matthew · « **Reply #4 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:06:20 AM »

Matthew: The SSPX doesn't promote worldliness. For example, the SSPX repeatedly advises members to get rid of the TV, which is the paragon of worldliness.

SJB: Oh yeah? Some extreme liberals (??) advise getting rid of the TV as well.

Matthew: And your point is...? That non-Catholics can be non-worldly as well? How does that invalidate my premise that the SSPX doesn't promote worldliness?

Not exactly a paragon of logic...

Not to derail the conversation, but WHO are you referring to when you say extreme liberals advise getting rid of the TV? That sounds like a contradiction in terms to me.

A liberal is one who wants the guardrails removed from the bridge, so you're "free" to walk over the edge of the bridge. Getting rid of the TV is essentially putting up guardrails.

Caminus · « **Reply #5 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:41:23 AM »

SJB confuses the material act with the formal motive or end. The reason why some hippies toss their TV is to devote more time to other worldy pursuits, innately realizing the perfidity of it, its mere annoyance or for any other natural reason or subjective disposition, including selfishness. Two women could choose to remain virgins, one for the sake of religion, the other for the sake of some material gain or vanity or other psychological defect. The same material act, but the thing that makes one meritorious and the other non-meritorious at best (even on a natural level, let alone the supernatural) is the reason, motive or end of the act.

Thus, your comparison fails.

SJB · « **Reply #6 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:47:05 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

Matthew: The SSPX doesn't promote worldliness. For example, the SSPX repeatedly advises members to get rid of the TV, which is the paragon of worldliness.

SJB: Oh yeah? Some extreme liberals (??) advise getting rid of the TV as well.

Matthew: And your point is...? That non-Catholics can be non-worldly as well? How does that invalidate my premise that the SSPX doesn't promote worldliness?

Not exactly a paragon of logic...

Not to derail the conversation, but WHO are you referring to when you say extreme liberals advise getting rid of the TV? That sounds like a contradiction in terms to me.

A liberal is one who wants the guardrails removed from the bridge, so you're "free" to walk over the edge of the bridge. Getting rid of the TV is essentially putting up guardrails.

I never said or even implied the SSPX promotes worldiness.

Yes, Matthew, I know people who are so FAR from being Catholic, and believe the television should be pitched.

SJB · « **Reply #7 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:49:56 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

SJB, is that supposed to be a rebuttal?

Advocating getting rid of the TV certainly doesn't make anyone UN-Catholic. It doesn't make them liberal either. If some "extreme liberals" advise "killing the tv", they're certainly not being extreme liberals in that particular moment, right?

I didn't say that tossing the TV makes one a non-schismatic or a good Catholic. I merely gave one example of how the SSPX is not worldly by nature.

To make things clearer for those with simple minds, here is my premise:

The SSPX is an extremely faithful, particularly healthy, and beneficial branch of the Catholic Church, and as such, should be expected to have the same weaknesses the Catholic Church has endured throughout the ages, particularly in Her human element.

Is SJB's response (above) a typical example of how cloudy and befuddled most sedevacantists' minds are?

What would the SSPX have to start doing to convince you its sole mission is to preserve the full integrity of the Catholic Priesthood, and by extension, the Catholic Faith?

SJB: (in a deep, raspy voice): It should DIIIIIIE!

I see. So you hate the SSPX. How sweet.

Yes, I realize I put words in your mouth. Well, please tell us (if my guess was wrong), what WOULD you say the SSPX should do with its parishioners?

Lemme guess...tell them all there's no Pope, and THAT will extract "the world" from those materialistic and worldly parishioners! Because we all know the Sedevacantist world doesn't have any of those :rolleyes:

I'm not anti-SSPX. The world is not a battle between the SSPX and everybody else.

SJB · « **Reply #8 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:52:19 AM »

Quote from: Caminus

SJB confuses the material act with the formal motive or end. The reason why some hippies toss their TV is to devote more time to other worldy pursuits, innately realizing the perfidity of it, its mere annoyance or for any other natural reason or subjective disposition, including selfishness. Two women could choose to remain virgins, one for the sake of religion, the other for the sake of some material gain or vanity or other psychological defect. The same material act, but the thing that makes one meritorious and the other non-meritorious at best (even on a natural level, let alone the supernatural) is the reason, motive or end of the act.

Thus, your comparison fails.

Thus, you misunderstand again Caminus. That wasn't "my comparison."

Pope Pius XII did not recommend such a thing. Nobody has address that little fact.

SJB · « **Reply #9 on:** November 10, 2011, 09:54:32 AM »

Quote from: s2srea

Quote from: SJB
Pope Pius XII did not recommend such a thing. What about radio?

A lot of extreme liberals advise "Kill your TV" ... certainly doesn't make them more Catholic.

I don't think that's all you got out of his whole post is it? I think Matthew was trying to make the point that TV can be an extension and introduction of modernistic materialism into the home.

It certainly can be, yet simply removing the device from your home is a very simplistic approach and will possibly backfire.

SJB · « **Reply #10 on:** November 10, 2011, 10:12:44 AM »

Quote from: Matthew

I've heard SSPX-attending Catholics criticized because some chapels have some worldly members.

I've never heard this and it's a stupid comment anyway. Of course many Catholics have been OVERLY worldly. We are in the world, but we we need to avoid inordinate attachments, to both material goods and other creatures.

Charles · « **Reply #11 on:** November 10, 2011, 10:13:55 AM »

So, how do our computers fit in with all of this ?

Caminus · « **Reply #12 on:** November 10, 2011, 10:29:59 AM »

Quote from: SJB

Quote from: Caminus
SJB confuses the material act with the formal motive or end. The reason why some hippies toss their TV is to devote more time to other worldy pursuits, innately realizing the perfidity of it, its mere annoyance or for any other natural reason or subjective disposition, including selfishness. Two women could choose to remain virgins, one for the sake of religion, the other for the sake of some material gain or vanity or other psychological defect. The same material act, but the thing that makes one meritorious and the other non-meritorious at best (even on a natural level, let alone the supernatural) is the reason, motive or end of the act.

Thus, your comparison fails.

Thus, you misunderstand again Caminus. That wasn't "my comparison."

Pope Pius XII did not recommend such a thing. Nobody has address that little fact.

I understood you perfectly and demonstrated the fallacy of the comparison. If Pius XII's silence was your primary or only point, I would have addressed it, but as it stands, I assumed that you would realize that no legitimate inference can be made from the silence of a Roman Pontiff on such a particular matter. Padre Pio recommended it, is that not good enough for you?

SJB · « **Reply #13 on:** November 10, 2011, 10:52:22 AM »

Quote from: Caminus

Quote from: SJB
Quote from: Caminus
SJB confuses the material act with the formal motive or end. The reason why some hippies toss their TV is to devote more time to other worldy pursuits, innately realizing the perfidity of it, its mere annoyance or for any other natural reason or subjective disposition, including selfishness. Two women could choose to remain virgins, one for the sake of religion, the other for the sake of some material gain or vanity or other psychological defect. The same material act, but the thing that makes one meritorious and the other non-meritorious at best (even on a natural level, let alone the supernatural) is the reason, motive or end of the act.

Thus, your comparison fails.

Thus, you misunderstand again Caminus. That wasn't "my comparison."

Pope Pius XII did not recommend such a thing. Nobody has address that little fact.

I understood you perfectly and demonstrated the fallacy of the comparison. If Pius XII's silence was your primary or only point, I would have addressed it, but as it stands, I assumed that you would realize that no legitimate inference can be made from the silence of a Roman Pontiff on such a particular matter. Padre Pio recommended it, is that not good enough for you?

Silence?

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PIUS XII ON THE COMMUNICATIONS FIELD: MOTION PICTURES, RADIO, TELEVISION SEPTEMBER 8, 1957

Telesphorus · « **Reply #14 on:** November 10, 2011, 10:59:25 AM »

SJB, do you believe that popular tv is morally acceptable? Do you really think a child can be raised with the TV on and expect them to not be heavily influenced in a negative way?

Do you believe that the typical person is able to control and limit their television watching and minimize the effects of the propaganda that is directed at them?