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Author Topic: Works of the Flesh  (Read 1244 times)

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Offline Caminus

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Works of the Flesh
« on: September 09, 2009, 11:49:43 PM »
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  • Are we guilty of any of these?

    "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like.  Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God."



    Offline CM

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #1 on: September 10, 2009, 12:38:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: Caminus
    "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are fornication, uncleanness, immodesty, luxury, idolatry, witchcrafts, enmities, contentions, emulations, wraths, quarrels, dissensions, sects, envies, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like. Of the which I foretell you, as I have foretold to you, that they who do such things shall not obtain the kingdom of God."


    Not I, though I have been guilty of many of these in the past, before converting.

    Bless the Lord o my soul, for all that He has done for thee!  As a father hath compassion on his child, so the Lord hath compassion on them that fear Him.

    I know you will disagree with me Caminus. You will accuse me of sectarianism on account of baptism of desire and sedevacantism, but the fact is that if you truly believed in papal infallibility instead of implicitly denying it, then you would see that baptism of desire is heresy.  As for sedevacantism, it is clearly a teaching of the Church that a heretic is not a Catholic, and I will not recognize a non-Catholic as pope, especially when he has manifested an agenda to destroy the Church, which coincides perfectly with the Alta Vendita.


    Offline Caminus

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #2 on: September 10, 2009, 12:03:50 PM »
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  • It's interesting to see that you feel the need to justify yourself.

    Offline Raoul76

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #3 on: September 10, 2009, 12:56:52 PM »
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  • Caminus said:
    Quote
    It's interesting to see that you feel the need to justify yourself.


    Caminus, you ask a leading question, and then someone responds and you say they're justifying themselves?

    Disagreements among Catholics are not "quarrels."  Otherwise St. Paul was "quarreling" with St. Peter when he rebuked him for holding to the Old Law about circuмcision.

    What is your insinuation here, that sedevacantists are quarreling when they rebuke you and other SSPX members for adopting an incoherent theology, while SSPX members are kind and accepting?  No, the sedevacantists are stating a fact -- and being kind and accepting of heresy is not a virtue.

    We are trying to clarify doctrine.  Some like Catholic Martyr say that it is clear but to make it so they throw out St. Robert Bellarmine and St. Thomas Aquinas and a great number of Popes.  Some take that as the "logical consequence" of sedevacantism but actually the Feeneyite mentality has another source than sedevacantism -- it began under Pius XII.  

    But he believes what he is saying and is not just dissenting for the sake of dissenting.  Some here try to correct him, believing his soul is in danger through false interpretation of doctrine, and he does the same, thinking ours are in danger.  

    You are one of the few here who resorts to outright name-calling and invective.  What was it you called me, "vain and egotistical"?  You are condemned by the words of St. Paul you just quoted, unless you repent.
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Caminus

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #4 on: September 10, 2009, 01:16:50 PM »
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  • If CM is not a quarreling, dissenting sectarian then I don't know what is.  If you state as a fact that which is merely your own degraded opinion, I don't know what else to say to you my friend.

    Repent of what?  Censuring your own errors?  Oh how you would wish!  What now, is truth and falsehood relevant to which party one belongs?    


    Offline Raoul76

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #5 on: September 10, 2009, 01:34:31 PM »
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  • CM is honestly bothered by what he thinks is a heresy, and he has some reason to think so as the Church has been steadily infiltrated by liberals for hundreds of years now.  I think he is wrong but instead of calling his opinions "degraded" I'd like to have him on my team.

    Attacking what you think is someone's personality is not "censuring their errors."  Again, if we're going back to St. Paul, did he call St. Peter a "foul-mouthed egomaniac" or did he stick to the facts, that the Old Law was abrogated with the coming of Christ, hoping St. Peter would see the truth?  

    Yet you have called me vain and egotistical.   You don't repent for that?  I'll let God be the judge of who is quarrelsome.

    You do not have the truth, at least as far as sedevacantism goes, and that is why you write incoherent gobbeldygook, and then get angry when people call you out on it.  These people have already been traumatized with enough theological-sounding evasion from the likes of Ratzinger, who make the issues involved seem unclear when they are very clear.  Papal infallibility means that no heretic who teaches heresy from the Magisterium can be Pope.  It has never happened and never will happen.  

    You have actually told me to "interpret VII in the light of tradition," using Ratzinger's exact words -- most of your brethren in SSPX pretend that he doesn't even exist, except to call him Pope, and they explicitly reject the VII "bulls."  This means you are not even in harmony with the other members of your confused third order.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #6 on: September 10, 2009, 02:09:05 PM »
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  • I agree with Raoul's post.  I will say that the disagreement between Peter and Paul was not about whether the old law was ended but that Peter was avoiding eating or being seen with the Gentiles.  God showed Peter in a vision that the Old Law was revoked.  Paul chastized Peter for giving scandal (to the Gentiles for not being willing to eat or be seen with them informally and to the Jєωs for giving the impressing by his actions that the Old Law was still in force or that somewhow the Jєωιѕн Catholics were better Catholics than the Gentile Catholics.

    Not a theological rebuke but a rebuke for his misleading and probably cowardly actions.
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church

    Offline Raoul76

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #7 on: September 10, 2009, 03:44:16 PM »
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  • I didn't know the details, lover_of_truth, thanks for that.  I'd thought it was all about St. Peter's insistence on the rite of circuмcision, as performing this would tend to deny the new circuмcision, baptism.

    All through history Catholics have tried to reason with each other and bring other Catholics back into the fold they may have left through mistaken reasoning or obstinacy ( hopefully the former ).  During the Great Western Schism, St. Catherine of Siena, the uniquely great saint, not only rebuked those who followed Clement VII, who was elected by the same Cardinals who had previously elected the true Pope Urban VI, but rebuked Urban VI himself, as he let power get to his head a little bit and drove people into the hands of Clement with his harsh tyrannical behavior.  

    Was she indulging in "dissension"?  No, she was trying to end dissension, by emphatically reproving her fellows with the truth.  When I talk about the sedevacantist position being the correct one, I am also trying to end dissension, in my small and insignificant way -- though we all know it will take an act of God to restore the Church to health.

    Speaking of the Great Western Schism, one dilatory argument often used by SSPX and their supporters is that no one knew who the true Pope was, and that there were saints on both sides, the implication being that is "impossible" to know whether the sedevacantists or SSPX or even Novus Ordo are right, and that the truth is too confusing, and we must not be too emphatic with those who disagree but should all just live and let live, not trying to convert anyone else to our position.

    Not only is this nonsense -- because the SSPX and sedevacantists cannot BOTH be right, as Father Gabriel of CMRI so aptly stated from the pulpit -- but what they often neglect to mention is that St. Vincent Ferrer, who supported the Avignon line of anti-Pope Clement VII and his successors, CHANGED HIS MIND.

    The Great Schism of the West, Louis Salembier, 1907, pg. 79

    Quote
    "At last Vincent's eyes were opened, and he declared that the obstinacy of the Cardinal de Luna, become Benedict XIII, was an obstacle to the peace of the Church.  On that occasion the great and humble wonder-worker ascended the pulpit, blamed the pontiff, and with all Spain, renounced the obedience of Avignon.  This was on January 12, 1416."

    Here's hoping you change your mind, Caminus.  But do not call it dissension or strife when we try to bring you to the truth.  If anything it's more like a work of love, although I'll admit, loving you is hard... All the more reason to do so!
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.


    Offline Raoul76

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #8 on: September 10, 2009, 04:09:46 PM »
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  • I don't know if I was direct enough -- the point is that ultimately St. Catherine and St. Vincent Ferrer ended up on the same side of the schism.  If St. Catherine were alive today and sedevacantist, and St. Vincent Ferrer were SSPX, this means he would have eventually come around to sedevacantism and renounced his former position.

    Besides, the difficulty of our time is actually more brutal and obvious than theirs.  The Great Western Schism was begun by Cardinals who said they were coerced by fear into electing an Italian Pope, after the exile of the papacy to Avignon.  How were the people supposed to know the details of a papal conclave?

    In our time, we clearly see that Paul VI-Ratzinger are heretics -- John XXIII may have never directly taught heresy -- whose heretical acts are almost daily.  Moreover we can see from their Encyclicals that through their attempts to have "dialogues" with other religions instead of trying to convert them, they attempt to "reconcile Christ and Belial," and are therefore all of one Modernist mind and have already been roundly condemned by Pope St. Pius X.

    The only thing keeping people attached to the conciliar structures is fear of saying that the man playing the part of Pope is not the Pope.  What if we're wrong?  Then we're going to hell -- that is their fear.  And when you see a BILLION people still in the Novus Ordo, your fear is compounded, you think "This many people can't be wrong."  

    Well, to quote Apocalypse 13:7,

    Quote
    And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And power was given him over every tribe, and people, and tongue, and nation.


    SSPX priests and writers, intentionally or not, play into this fear by making things seem hazy which are not, and by allowing people to have their cake and eat it too, or so they think.  SSPX is for those who don't want to take the sedevacantist leap, in case they are wrong, but want to disobey the man they call Pope by having their traditional Mass and rejecting most of his "teachings."  All I can say is, "A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways."

    SSPX also act as if we must wait for some authority to judge the Pope WITHIN VII ITSELF.  No, those clergy who see that the impostor and non-Catholic calling himself "Pope" is a heretic are the ones who pass judgment on him by refusing submission.  If there were more of us, we could elect a true Pope without having him come off like "Pope Michael."  But SSPX, intentionally or not, has seen to it that we are divided, not united, and that most traditionalists are kept chained to the Rock of Anti-Christ.  So ask yourself, which side is the "sect," and which is the Catholic Church? As the Arian crisis proved, just trotting out your larger numbers will avail you nothing.  Fear makes people do funny things, and they often mistakenly believe that there is safety in numbers.

    You have to see the deception of our time as involving wheels within wheels -- not only is there Novus Ordo, but then there is SSPX to neutralize the traditional movement, and as we see with this St. Gertrude's brouhaha there are even disagreements among sedevacantists, due to human weakness.  I've known of one unsung sedevacantist bishop who went off the deep end, and then there was the famously disgraced Francis Schuckardt of CMRI.  I am not afraid of the dirty laundry, because it has nothing to say about the correctness of our theological position.

    Satan is like an atom-smasher, no matter how small we get, he tries to do even more damage, relentless fiend that he is.  But out of this spark, I believe we will start the fire:  The Triumph of the Immaculate Heart.  
    Readers: Please IGNORE all my postings here. I was a recent convert and fell into errors, even heresy for which hopefully my ignorance excuses. These include rejecting the "rhythm method," rejecting the idea of "implicit faith," and being brieflfy quasi-Jansenist. I also posted occasions of sins and links to occasions of sin, not understanding the concept much at the time, so do not follow my links.

    Offline Lover of Truth

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    Works of the Flesh
    « Reply #9 on: September 10, 2009, 04:18:22 PM »
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  •  :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause: :applause:
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    Our numbers may not be that small.  Look at all the people clapping!!1


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    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church