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Author Topic: Working together in the Traditional Catholic movement  (Read 5623 times)

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Re: Working together in the Traditional Catholic movement
« Reply #5 on: September 25, 2022, 08:35:49 PM »
Jesus told us there will be a quiz at the pearly gates.

Will He ask us, "Tell me.  Who is the valid pope?"

(meanwhile, back to my sins)


Re: Working together in the Traditional Catholic movement
« Reply #6 on: September 25, 2022, 11:37:03 PM »
Will never happen.  There is too much pride involved.
Yes, it really is just that. And the modernists like it that is way. A scattered flock.

That said, I do wish it were possible to work together in a meaningful way.


Online Stubborn

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Re: Working together in the Traditional Catholic movement
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2022, 05:22:25 AM »
This is a pseudo-split off from the R&R topic. We have so many topics that divide us, such as the question of the office of the Papacy and whether or not Russia is going to save us. What I want to know is what could be done to transform the Traditional Catholic movement into something effective.

Or is it enough that we have Mass Centers with priests that have supplied jurisdiction? Thoughts? Observations? I think this has come up before in some form, but I would like to revisit if there's anyone else interested.
Unity was obliterated in the 60s by false doctrines with the perpetration of the NO and by the wolves who entered the Church and came out of hiding.

Since the wolves have entered the Church it is enough, nay, it is more than we deserve just to have true priests, the Mass and sacraments - God is good and merciful and sends priests to feed His sheep.

Snip from a sermon given by Fr. Wathen.......
"...you will remember that Our Lord uses the same expression in His parable, His allegory of the Good Shepherd. You remember that He says that the wolf enters among the sheep and he kills and he scatters. The wolf is the false teacher, the heretical preacher, the false prophet. And he introduces into the Church destruction and disunity. Because his doctrine is false there is bound to be disagreement among the Lord’s flock as to what is the true doctrine and what is the false.

This is what we have seen in our generation due to the Second Vatican Council. There is now in the Catholic Church, grievous, and apparently irremediable disunity. There is no agreement any more as to what the true doctrine of Christ is, what the Apostolic tradition is, what we must believe for salvation, or even that we must believe for salvation.

The wolves have entered into God’s Holy Church, and they have not only set about destroying souls by the ravaging of the faith, but they have caused grievous, most harmful disunity, so that nowadays the people don’t know what priest to trust." - or what to believe. 

I like to reference Jeremias 23:1-4 in regards to all of this...
[1] Woe to the pastors, that destroy and tear the sheep of my pasture, saith the Lord. [2] Therefore thus saith the Lord the God of Israel to the pastors that feed my people: You have scattered my flock, and driven them away, and have not visited them: behold I will visit upon you for the evil of your doings, saith the Lord. [3] And I will gather together the remnant of my flock, out of all the lands into which I have cast them out: and I will make them return to their own fields, and they shall increase and be multiplied. [4] And I will set up pastors over them, and they shall feed them: they shall fear no more, and they shall not be dismayed: and none shall be wanting of their number, saith the Lord.



Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Working together in the Traditional Catholic movement
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2022, 09:04:19 AM »
Unity was obliterated in the 60s by false doctrines with the perpetration of the NO and by the wolves who entered the Church and came out of hiding.

Vatican I clearly teaches that unity of faith is guaranteed by adherence to the See of Peter, something that R&R deny.

Nevertheless, there's unity and there's unity.  Church history is replete with theological disputes among various schools.  So a certain amount of contention is unavoidable, and might even be good in the long term, as the debate tends to clarify certain doctrinal matters.

But, to take the classic example of the Thomists vs. the Molinists, regarding predestination and free will, the debate continued, as the Church would not step in to take sides or to resolve it, yet the Church did forbid the two sides from denouncing one another as non-Catholic heretics for adopting the opposing position.

Among the various Traditional groups, we have many examples of disputed questions that are elevated to the level of certainty, resulting in the effective excommunication of those who do not agree with them ... such as, questions regarding the validity of the +Thuc line, the validity of NOM Holy Orders, the status of the NOM, the status of NO annulments, etc.  Trad priests are not even pastors, much less do Trad bishops have jurisdiction.  Their only role is to make the Sacraments available to the faithful on a emergency basis.  So it's extreme over-reach for the various groups to refuse Sacraments to people who disagree with them.  If I were a priest who, say, felt the +Thuc line was doubtful or that NOM annulments were bogus, I might advise the faithful that "It is my opinion that you are putting your souls at risk [in one of these areas]."  But, that having been said, it would not be my place on impose this view on the consciences of others and refuse them the Sacraments on those grounds.

SSPV and some of their derivatives are particularly notorious for this kind of behavior.

Now, this does not mean that there aren't SOME questions that bear directly on Catholic faith that has in fact been decided by the Church, such as if there were "Trads" who rejected Vatican I or the legitimacy of Pope Pius IX (and consequently, papal infallibility and also the Immaculate Conception).  But the vast majorit of these issues have not been adjudicated by the Church and so the Trad clergy have no authority to impose them on the faithful.  Someone like a John Pontrello or Richard Ibranyi should in fact be refused the Sacraments as notorious manifest heretics.

You also have the SSPX who have traditionally tried to impose strict obligations of "obedience" both on the part of the priests and the faithful, excoriating priests who, say, leave the SSPX, as guilty of disobediece.  Yet they have no actual authority that could bind them to obedience, and this is dangerously close to schismatic to pretend that they have an authority structure outside of and in opposition to the Church.  So it's OK for them to disobey the Vicar of Christ, but not OK for a priest to disobey an SSPX "superior" who has no actual authority?

Re: Working together in the Traditional Catholic movement
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2022, 11:41:17 AM »
But, to take the classic example of the Thomists vs. the Molinists, regarding predestination and free will, the debate continued, as the Church would not step in to take sides or to resolve it, yet the Church did forbid the two sides from denouncing one another as non-Catholic heretics for adopting the opposing position.
I'm not trying to turn this into the R&R Thread 2.0, but to instead seek solutions here. It would be great if we could achieve this kind of cease-fire in the quote above, though perhaps unrealistic.