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Author Topic: words of JP2  (Read 1787 times)

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Offline Marlelar

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words of JP2
« on: June 25, 2013, 12:58:19 AM »
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  • From the Apostolic Exhortation Catechesi Tradendae (link here)
    section 4, sub-section 32, paragraph 4:

    "In this context, it is extremely important to give a correct and fair presentation of the other Churches and ecclesial communities that the Spirit of Christ does not refrain from using as means of salvation; moreover, some, even very many, of the outstanding elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church herself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church."(bolding mine)

    Marsha



    Offline TKGS

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #1 on: June 25, 2013, 07:29:42 AM »
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  • Please note that the link Marlelar linked to is the Vatican website.  This is not some radical sedevacantist putting words into John Paul 2's mouth.  This is John Paul 2 simply explaining his Modernist and anti-Catholic doctrines.

    For the record, Pope Frank's recent comments about the salvation of atheists are, I think, merely a doctrinal extension of John Paul 2's doctrines.  I find it interesting that Vatican officials felt comfortable publicly "correcting" Frank when there has never been any correction of the outright heresies spoken again and again by John Paul 2.  I'm beginning to see why the conclave elected Bergoglio:  They wanted an incredibly weak man at the helm so that they could do as they please.

    These men are Modernist through and through and they are not popes of the Holy, Roman, Catholic Church.


    Offline Maizar

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #2 on: June 25, 2013, 08:29:23 AM »
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  • It's difficult to see how statements like that, so clearly heretical, could come from the mouth of a pope. JPII was intelligent and informed, and was aware of the objections of many Catholics to his teachings, so there is no doubt in my mind that he was willfully and knowingly in error.

    Some legitimate Pope or Council in the future will need to declare him to have been a sham and a fraud, but unfortunately I don't think we have the authority to declare it, obvious though it may seem.

    Offline jlamos

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #3 on: June 26, 2013, 11:02:34 PM »
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  • Quote from: Maizar
    It's difficult to see how statements like that, so clearly heretical, could come from the mouth of a pope.


    They didn't.

    Offline Santo Subito

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 01:55:46 PM »
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  • That section cites to this VCII section...

    http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/docuмents/vat-ii_decree_19641121_unitatis-redintegratio_en.html

    3. Even in the beginnings of this one and only Church of God there arose certain rifts,(19) which the Apostle strongly condemned.(20) But in subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions made their appearance and quite large communities came to be separated from full communion with the Catholic Church - for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame. The children who are born into these Communities and who grow up believing in Christ cannot be accused of the sin involved in the separation, and the Catholic Church embraces upon them as brothers, with respect and affection. For men who believe in Christ and have been truly baptized are in communion with the Catholic Church even though this communion is imperfect. The differences that exist in varying degrees between them and the Catholic Church - whether in doctrine and sometimes in discipline, or concerning the structure of the Church - do indeed create many obstacles, sometimes serious ones, to full ecclesiastical communion. The ecuмenical movement is striving to overcome these obstacles. But even in spite of them it remains true that all who have been justified by faith in Baptism are members of Christ's body,(21) and have a right to be called Christian, and so are correctly accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.(22)

    Moreover, some and even very many of the significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, and visible elements too. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Christ, belong by right to the one Church of Christ.

    The brethren divided from us also use many liturgical actions of the Christian religion. These most certainly can truly engender a life of grace in ways that vary according to the condition of each Church or Community. These liturgical actions must be regarded as capable of giving access to the community of salvation.

    It follows that the separated Churches(23) and Communities as such, though we believe them to be deficient in some respects, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Church.

    Nevertheless, our separated brethren, whether considered as individuals or as Communities and Churches, are not blessed with that unity which Jesus Christ wished to bestow on all those who through Him were born again into one body, and with Him quickened to newness of life - that unity which the Holy Scriptures and the ancient Tradition of the Church proclaim. For it is only through Christ's Catholic Church, which is "the all-embracing means of salvation," that they can benefit fully from the means of salvation. We believe that Our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, in order to establish the one Body of Christ on earth to which all should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the people of God. This people of God, though still in its members liable to sin, is ever growing in Christ during its pilgrimage on earth, and is guided by God's gentle wisdom, according to His hidden designs, until it shall happily arrive at the fullness of eternal glory in the heavenly Jerusalem.


    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 02:11:49 PM »
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  • Santo Subito,

    From what you've posted, it looks like JP II believed that other religions had the means of salvation - is that what he was trying to say?

    Offline TKGS

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 07:39:31 PM »
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  • Quote from: Capt McQuigg
    Santo Subito,

    From what you've posted, it looks like JP II believed that other religions had the means of salvation - is that what he was trying to say?


    I'm not intending to answer for someone else, but I will note that this is exactly what John Paul 2 taught.  It "looks like" it because it is precisely what it is.

    Offline Santo Subito

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 09:30:36 PM »
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  • JPII is repeating the VCII idea that Protestants share Catholic baptism and thus they are still united to the Church, although imperfectly. Since certain Catholic sacraments, the Bible, and other liturgical elements and beliefs are present in Protestant communities, the conservatives will say that these are the "means of salvation" in these religions and not what is untrue in these religions. Thus, they will say there is no heresy and the Church has always recognized good elements in other religions.


    Offline Napoli

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #8 on: July 01, 2013, 10:31:11 PM »
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  • There is no salvation outside of the Catholic Church!
    Regina Angelorum, ora pro nobis!

    Offline Capt McQuigg

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #9 on: July 02, 2013, 01:25:13 PM »
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  • Quote from: Santo Subito
    JPII is repeating the VCII idea that Protestants share Catholic baptism and thus they are still united to the Church, although imperfectly. Since certain Catholic sacraments, the Bible, and other liturgical elements and beliefs are present in Protestant communities, the conservatives will say that these are the "means of salvation" in these religions and not what is untrue in these religions. Thus, they will say there is no heresy and the Church has always recognized good elements in other religions.


    You sure you want to go down that alley?  

    If so, then the most ardent home aloner has nothing to worry about because he's imperfectly united by means of Baptism.  

    Is rejection of the Primacy of Peter a heresy?

    And if protestants, who fully reject the papacy on theory and reject the priesthood, thereby negating Our Lords edicts, if they are still united then being united is very near meaningless.

    Then there is the protestant view and dismissal of Our Lady.

    Santo Subito, have you thought through the implications of defending the conciliar viewpoint?

    Offline TKGS

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #10 on: July 03, 2013, 08:47:35 AM »
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  • Is Santo Subito "defending the conciliar viewpoint" or is he merely reporting it?

    I thought he was simply identifying what John Paul 2 was saying and explaining those beliefs in answer to Capt McQuigg's question.  

    Santo, are you defending John Paul 2's heresy or merely explaining it?


    Offline Santo Subito

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    words of JP2
    « Reply #11 on: July 03, 2013, 10:13:29 AM »
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  • I was trying to explain it as you would encounter conservative apologists of the CAF variety explain it. They see no contradiction because they say the Church has always recognized elements of truth in Protestant "religions" (scripture, parts of Tradition, morality) and also, to varying degrees, the Church has admitted one finds elements of sanctification there such as sacraments; mainly baptism and I suppose marriage. Thus they  see all Christians united in a common baptism and thus baptized Protestants are part of the Church though not in "full Communion", i.e. formal members with i's dotted and t's crossed. However, they will say that this separation is often not subjectively the fault of these Protestants as they did not actively break from the Church but were born into a break. Since God can bestow actual graces to anyone He so chooses, He does so to the people in the Protestant sects to move them towards Him using the elements of Truth they do posess as a "means of salvation" for them. At least that's my understanding of their position.