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Author Topic: Wimpy article about Mass  (Read 875 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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Wimpy article about Mass
« on: March 16, 2017, 01:52:02 PM »
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  • https://www.firstthings.com/article/2017/04/return-to-form


    The writer does not get it. He's right that we must build from the bottom on up, but that does not excuse superiors from carrying out their duty. Why can't we fight from both fronts?

    I also noticed a passing over of the idea of the New Mass "enriching" the Traditional Mass. The same ridiculous terminology of "ordinary form" and "extraordinary form" is used. They still do not see past the modernist thought of Benedict XVI.

    Speaking of Benedict XVI, in my humble opinion, I think there was a push to have him resign, but I imagine it would have been done in a clever sort of way. The powers that be can get around thing through technicalities to get what they want without there having been actual pressure for the resignation, which would have been canonically illicit.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline Nadir

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    Wimpy article about Mass
    « Reply #1 on: March 16, 2017, 06:37:52 PM »
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  • The guy also has a particularly boring style and far too verbose. I got as far as
    Quote
    (Without Lefebvre’s disobedience) Pope Benedict XVI would have found no ground for Summorum Pontificuм, his famous letter liberating the celebration of the Tridentine Mass.
    then called it quits.

    Quote from: Kephapaulos
    https://www.firstthings.com/article/2017/04/return-to-form

    Speaking of Benedict XVI, in my humble opinion, I think there was a push to have him resign, but I imagine it would have been done in a clever sort of way. The powers that be can get around thing through technicalities to get what they want without there having been actual pressure for the resignation, which would have been canonically illicit.


    As I posted on the other thread, Pope Benedict forced into "retirement", says Italian Archbishop:

    Quote
    Quote
    Bank of Italy Suspends Vatican Debit, Credit Card Payments
    Friday, 04 Jan 2013 06:47 AM
    http://www.newsmax.com/Newsfront/bank-italy-vatican-money/2013/01/04/id/470013/


    Quote
    DECLARATIO
    http://w2.vatican.va/content/benedict-xvi/en/speeches/2013/february/docuмents/hf_ben-xvi_spe_20130211_declaratio.html

    Feb 11th 2013


    Quote
    Vatican can take credit cards again
    by Mark Thompson   @MarkThompsonCNN February 12, 2013: 11:39 AM ET
    http://money.cnn.com/2013/02/12/news/economy/vatican-payments/

    Help of Christians, guard our land from assault or inward stain,
    Let it be what God has planned, His new Eden where You reign.


    Offline PG

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    Wimpy article about Mass
    « Reply #2 on: March 17, 2017, 12:49:14 PM »
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  • Kephapaulos - I read that article as well.  I was pleased to see the credit given to +Lefebvre.  But, I was disappointed with the solution he spoke of.  He basically said that the 1962 liturgy is going to be restored to the church solely by the laity.  But, that is just not realistic.  It is quite ridiculous really.  The realistic response is to acknowledge(which the author did briefly) that there was a liturgy sandwiched between the NO and the 1962.  And, it turns out that +Lefebvre used this liturgy in the early days.  It was the 1965 liturgy.  And, I see it as a golden bridge.  It is basically the 1962 liturgy with small amounts of its ends snipped off.  And, quite frankly, I think traditionalists would gladly give up their 1962 for the 1965 if it sent the NO to the eternal trash bin  But, there is much to be missed in the 1965 liturgy.  Not only are their some undesirable rubrics(female participation), but the introibo psalm is cut out, and I love that psalm.  I can do without the last gospel and leonine prayers. I would rather trade out the duplicate confiteors/prayers for inclusion of the introibo.  The modernist complaint that always comes to mind was the repetition and the Ite Missa est not really being the dismissal.  Maybe traditionalists should have accommodated those complaints.  Because, not only did we lose that duel, we lost the bigger battle.

    I think that the solution lies in the sspx using their numbers and influence as bargaining power to get rid of the NO.  They should meet somewhere in an acceptable middle ground, which is actually a reality, so long as the sspx does not show its cards. I do not pray for a personal prelature.  Because, there is too great a difference between the two rites(as the author mentioned), and the NO is not good.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15

    Offline Prayerful

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    Re: Wimpy article about Mass
    « Reply #3 on: March 19, 2017, 06:59:04 PM »
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  • This 'transitional' liturgy had a final form in 1968 where the Canon could be said in the vernacular and priests could con-celebrate. +Lefebvre did that once. The 1965 and 1968 'transitional' missal introduced the pernicious Novus Ordo Missae idea of endless options. It was the result of work of the Concilium that would later introduce the lamentable NOM. Priests could, and often did, say the Mass in a mostly Traditional and Latinate way, and so for many laity, there was little warning of what was to come. The SSPX already follow Mgsr Bugnini's problematic Easter Ceremonies (in some ways the NOM Ceremonies were more Traditional discarding most of the ceremonial novelties posing as historical restoration), so my hope is that as much of the work of this suspected Mason can be forgotten. However, some have suggested it as a possible via media.

    Offline PG

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    Re: Wimpy article about Mass
    « Reply #4 on: March 19, 2017, 08:08:46 PM »
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  • Prayerful - Perhaps I should not call the 1965 litrugy a golden bridge.  But, the reason I do is that in tradition, it is taboo for anyone other than the pope to alter the liturgy.  The coined and derogatory "liturgy of Econe" term is one that comes to mind.  So, trads pick a liturgical date and stick by it through thick and thin.  This is a limiting factor when it comes to considering solutions.  So, for this reason I see the 1965 liturgy as a realistic option, and therefore favor it.  

    And, when I see the 1965 liturgy, I see a liturgy that can be celebrated in "full" conformity with tradition.   However, I also see it as a liturgy that can be "doubtfully" celebrated in conformity with tradition.  But, the proof is in the pudding.  And, I see it only as a negative doubt.  Because, the church received this liturgy and +Lefebvre did not rebel against it until many years later.  I think it wasn't until the 1980s that +lefebvre settled on the 1962.  And, I suspect from what I see now concerning the taboo of picking of choosing that is so evident, that +Lefebvres "liturgy of Econe" in the early days(1970-80)was celebrated in full conformity with the rubrics of 1965-68.  

    Now, this is important.  Because, when I compare that with the NO.  I do not see it as a liturgy that can be celebrated in "full" conformity with tradition.  And, this is viewed from the eyes of an informed layman in the year 2017.  Because, when I view the big picture, I cannot fail to see that two bishops of the church(one an archbishop) refused obedience and altered the course of the church in favor of the survival of the traditional 1962 rite.  And, to me, this means that the holy ghost will not allow the lofty changes of the 1969 liturgy to dominate the church's worship for reasons that are irrelevant to this conversation.   Because, the point is, that I am not living in the past, and neither should traditionalists.  The catholic church has a head, and that head is the papacy.  And, that church has 4 marks, and one of them is that she is to be holy.  And, catholics are seriously divided as to whether our head is holy or not.  So, lets focus on and fix that at all reasonable and acceptable costs.
    "A secure mind is like a continual feast" - Proverbs xv: 15