Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Author Topic: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma  (Read 1477 times)

0 Members and 7 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Freind

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 471
  • Reputation: +55/-53
  • Gender: Male
  • Caritas, Veritas, Sinceritas
Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
« on: December 30, 2025, 06:22:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There is a dogma: priests of the Catholic Church confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist and it is the True Body and Blood of Christ Himself
    There is a fact as certain as the dogma: My priest confects the Sacrament of the Eucharist and it is the True Body and Blood of Christ Himself

    The second is not dogma, but it is as certain as dogma.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48157
    • Reputation: +28408/-5313
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #1 on: December 30, 2025, 11:20:06 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What?  This has nothing to do with SVism.

    Second proposition is only morally certain, not dogmatically.  Could be that your priest isn't valid for one reason or another.


    Offline Freind

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 471
    • Reputation: +55/-53
    • Gender: Male
    • Caritas, Veritas, Sinceritas
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #2 on: Yesterday at 03:51:51 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • What?  This has nothing to do with SVism.

    Second proposition is only morally certain, not dogmatically.  Could be that your priest isn't valid for one reason or another.

    Yes, but absolute moral certitude. For practical purposes of faith, because we offer adoration to what looks like bread but we know is not (hypothetical notwithstanding).

    We also know that the men commonly claiming to be true popes cannot be so, because the Church could not violate Mortalium Animos to the universal Church in all Her organs of the magisterium.

    Offline Catholic Knight

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 919
    • Reputation: +250/-84
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #3 on: Yesterday at 08:19:52 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Yes, but absolute moral certitude. For practical purposes of faith, because we offer adoration to what looks like bread but we know is not (hypothetical notwithstanding).

    We also know that the men commonly claiming to be true popes cannot be so, because the Church could not violate Mortalium Animos to the universal Church in all Her organs of the magisterium.

    What is the definition of "absolute moral certitude"?

    Offline Freind

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 471
    • Reputation: +55/-53
    • Gender: Male
    • Caritas, Veritas, Sinceritas
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #4 on: Yesterday at 11:20:41 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • What is the definition of "absolute moral certitude"?

    "Our certainty regarding the validity of a sacrament in a particular case is not, to be sure, that of evidence [i.e., metaphysical or physical certitude], but neither is it merely moral [certitude]; it is truly and properly the certitude of divine faith."
         - Billot

    It's not dogma itself, but it is a dogmatic fact.

    “A dogmatic fact is a merely historical fact, which however is so connected with revealed doctrine that its determination is necessary for the complete guarding of the deposit of faith.”
    -  Sacrae Theologiae Summa by the Jesuit Fathers of Spain (1940's to 1950's)

    This is why saying "Leo is not a true pope" is a dogmatic fact, not a dogma.


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48157
    • Reputation: +28408/-5313
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #5 on: Yesterday at 12:38:22 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • There's no such thing as absolute moral certitude, as the two terms are contraries.

    Moral certitude refers to certitude beyond a reasonable doubt ... whereas absolute certitude refers to there being no doubt possible.

    While extremely unlikely, it's possible that your priests was not validly baptized ... cf. the infamous docuмent de presbytero non baptizato or that the bishop who ordained him botched the ordination Rite, etc.

    Only moral certitude is possible regarding the validity of any given attempt to offer the Mass.

    And you also clearly have no clue about what dogmatic fact means.

    So you're absolutely and dogmatically certain, certain with the certainty of faith ... that your priest didn't botch the essential form of the consecration or that the bishop didn't botch his ordination or that his parish priest didn't botch his Baptism?  No absolute or "dogmatic" certitude can ever be had about matters such as those which are within the realm of "absolute" possibility.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48157
    • Reputation: +28408/-5313
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #6 on: Yesterday at 12:50:41 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not sure where you found that Billot quote or whether you ripped it out of context, but these quotes from Billot contradict your point.  You just have to ask any priest with a modicuм of training scholastic theology that this is in fact the case.

    Billot (two separate quotes from his De Sacramentis):
    Quote
    It is true that we cannot be certain with the certainty of faith — that is, with the certainty with which we believe the being of God or the articles of the creed — that this or that priest has been validly ordained, or this or that Sacrament has been validly administered; but we are certain, with the certainty of faith, that priests and Sacraments are Christ’s institution; and moreover we may be morally certain that in any indefinite number of instances there was an intention to do what the Church does….
    ...
    …though we cannot have absolute certainty about the validity of any particular sacrament, whenever there is no appearance of simulation on the part of the minister, the validity of the sacrament is sufficiently certain

    First quote rejects dogmatic certainty, the second rejects absolute certainty.

    Offline Freind

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 471
    • Reputation: +55/-53
    • Gender: Male
    • Caritas, Veritas, Sinceritas
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #7 on: Today at 02:50:56 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not sure where you found that Billot quote or whether you ripped it out of context, but these quotes from Billot contradict your point.  You just have to ask any priest with a modicuм of training scholastic theology that this is in fact the case.

    Billot (two separate quotes from his De Sacramentis):
    First quote rejects dogmatic certainty, the second rejects absolute certainty.

    I could go on defending my statements with quotes, but it isn't necessary.

    Whatever term you want to use, I presented the analogy, and the false V2 popes is a FACT just as certain, and directly connected to the integrity of dogma, though not dogma itself. Those not understanding it are unfortunately in a position of having their faith in the divine Church eroded. 


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48157
    • Reputation: +28408/-5313
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #8 on: Today at 08:38:58 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So ... not sure what you're smoking, but the validity of particular Sacraments has absolutely nothing to do with the Pope question.  As for dogmatic SVism in general, the problem you have is that you ignore the fact that there are other premises in your conclusion that are not dogmatic, but the dogmatic SVs ignore them.

    In practice, however, MOST R&R types do deny the dogmatic MAJOR premise and are losing the faith, but not all, and specifically, Archbishop Lefebvre, whom they falsely hide behind to justify their error ... explicitly affirmed the MAJOR premise.  That's the unfortunate aspect of the Archbishop's legacy, where he failed to emphasize his reasoning enough, resulting in many of his modern followers having become thinly-veiled Old Catholics.  +Lefebvre had more of  a D&R position, "Doubt and Resist" ... which is perfectly acceptable.

    Offline Freind

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 471
    • Reputation: +55/-53
    • Gender: Male
    • Caritas, Veritas, Sinceritas
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #9 on: Today at 09:20:33 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • So ... not sure what you're smoking, but the validity of particular Sacraments has absolutely nothing to do with the Pope question.  As for dogmatic SVism in general, the problem you have is that you ignore the fact that there are other premises in your conclusion that are not dogmatic, but the dogmatic SVs ignore them.

    In practice, however, MOST R&R types do deny the dogmatic MAJOR premise and are losing the faith, but not all, and specifically, Archbishop Lefebvre, whom they falsely hide behind to justify their error ... explicitly affirmed the MAJOR premise.  That's the unfortunate aspect of the Archbishop's legacy, where he failed to emphasize his reasoning enough, resulting in many of his modern followers having become thinly-veiled Old Catholics.  +Lefebvre had more of  a D&R position, "Doubt and Resist" ... which is perfectly acceptable.

    It has to do with the certitude giving adoration to the Eucharist, because of the dogma behind it.

    The certitude is at the same level for knowing the papal claimants cannot be true popes because of their implementing the errors of Mortalium Animos throughout every corner of the Church hierarchy.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 48157
    • Reputation: +28408/-5313
    • Gender: Male
    Re: Why the Sedevacantist position is not dogma
    « Reply #10 on: Today at 12:42:36 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It has to do with the certitude giving adoration to the Eucharist, because of the dogma behind it.

    The certitude is at the same level for knowing the papal claimants cannot be true popes because of their implementing the errors of Mortalium Animos throughout every corner of the Church hierarchy.

    Sorry ... just not following at all.  Perhaps try formulating this as a syllogism.

    They could implement all kinds of "errors of Mortalium Animos" without that even invalidating the Rite.

    Sounds like what your grasping for but missing the mark on is that ...

    MAJOR:  Pope cannot promulgate a Rite of Mass that is doubtfully valid.
    MINOR:  Montini promulgated a Rite of Mass that is doubtfully valid.
    CONCLUSION:  Montini was not the Pope.

    Problem here, of course, is that the MINOR is not dogmatically certain, but we are making a private judgment.  Based on the logical weakest link principle, therefore, the conclusion cannot be dogmatically certain either, since the conclusion cannot be any stronger than the weakest of its premises.