Author Topic: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?  (Read 7042 times)

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Offline Neil Obstat

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Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
« Reply #30 on: October 31, 2017, 08:35:07 PM »
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  • Isn’t that one of the most beautiful things ever written?
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    Isn't it nice to know that we share something that's really important? We both appreciate the beauty of the Catholic Faith.
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    Would that could be the beginning and end of the discussion.
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    The Athanasian Creed has the effect of bringing Catholics together.
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    It's something we should be happy to share, and actually, we ought to be using it more frequently.
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    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #31 on: October 31, 2017, 08:37:30 PM »
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  • .
    Sorry it took so long -- I had to go take care of some things.
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    So there's the Trinity (properly understood), the Incarnation (properly understood) and the Redemption (properly understood).
    Furthermore there is everything the Church teaches as necessary for all Catholics to believe.
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    The Athanasian Creed, above clarifies the proper understanding of the Trinity, the Incarnation and the Redemption.
    It also spells out we must believe in the resurrection of the body and life everlasting.
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    We have two more Creeds that fill in a few gaps, but the Athanasian Creed goes into details the others skip over.
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    Since that time there have been councils and ex-cathedra definitions which progressively clarify what all Catholics must believe.
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    Such as the Council of Trent which pronounces anathema on anyone who says the sacraments are not necessary.
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    You're all worked up over "The Feeneyites" but I really don't know what those people believe that you think is so terrible.
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    Can you explain it?
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    Where in the Athanasian Creed, the Apostles' Creed or the Nicene Creed do these so-called Feeneyites depart from the Catholic Faith?
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    Or, is it somewhere else that you're getting what you think is so earth-shakingly important to be a Catholic?
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    *All* (as far as I know) popes, saints, theologians, canonists for the last 400 plus years have taught that one who has not been baptized can be saved if they have the desire for the sacrament of baptism and make and act of perfect contrition before they die. This is an act of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium which is infallible. The Council of Trent defined that one who has the desire for the sacrament can be justified and acording to Saint Alphonsus it is de fide. Obviously, I believe that this teaching was even taught by the Church from it’s beginning.


    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #32 on: October 31, 2017, 08:38:40 PM »
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  • .
    Isn't it nice to know that we share something that's really important? We both appreciate the beauty of the Catholic Faith.
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    Would that could be the beginning and end of the discussion.
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    The Athanasian Creed has the effect of bringing Catholics together.
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    It's something we should be happy to share, and actually, we ought to be using it more frequently.
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    Yes, I agree!

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #33 on: October 31, 2017, 09:02:28 PM »
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  • .
    *All* (as far as I know) popes, saints, theologians, canonists for the last 400 plus years have taught that one who has not been baptized can be saved if they have the desire for the sacrament of baptism and make and act of perfect contrition before they die. This is an act of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium which is infallible. The Council of Trent defined that one who has the desire for the sacrament can be justified and acording to Saint Alphonsus it is de fide. Obviously, I believe that this teaching was even taught by the Church from it’s beginning.
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    So, what's the problem? We all believe the Catholic Faith. 
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    And precisely NONE of us can know the state of mind or soul of a dying person after he's dead, nor can we demand of God that He sees the state of that person's soul the way WE see it (in our ignorance).
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    If a dying person prays to God asking Him for Holy Baptism, who are we to pronounce that since we did not see the Sacrament happen therefore it could not have taken place? Didn't Our Lord promise us that anything we ask of God in Jesus' name will not be denied to us?
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    Who are we to say that God cannot provide water baptism to anyone who sincerely asks for it?
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    Furthermore, who are we to demand that God provide water baptism to someone when we cannot be absolutely sure that the person isn't deeply committed to an intense opposition to God, with a hardened heart when only God would know that were He to miraculously provide water baptism to this person that he would then immediately after baptism go and sin deeply in his heart being of fixed will against God so as to render his soul subject to eternal punishment WITH THE INDELIBLE MARK of Holy Baptism on his soul making his eternal punishment even WORSE than it would have been had he not been baptized in the first place?
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    Which is a more perfect providence for almighty God? Is it more perfect that God would provide that which we presume is best (in our ignorance), or is it more perfect that God would provide that which He in His infinite knowledge and wisdom knows is BETTER?
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    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #34 on: November 01, 2017, 05:26:44 AM »
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  • Who are we to say that God cannot provide water baptism to anyone who sincerely asks for it?

    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine


    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #35 on: November 01, 2017, 06:47:01 AM »
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  • .
    I cannot understand why it's so important to some to go around proclaiming their faith in a theory of speculation.
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    To say it's been supported by theologians for hundreds of years for them is all they need.
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    Never mind the same theologians have been wrong in other cases.
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    Take St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, who denied the Immaculate Conception, based on a pagan tradition of "ensoulment."
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    That alone could have slowed down the Definition for several hundred years.
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    But the Nicene Creed's words "I believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is to be understood in a different way....?
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    It doesn't say three baptisms, does it?
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    I heard an otherwise reliable priest say that I John 5:8 refers to this -- when the subject of that Scripture is not Baptism.
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    Then he said BoD and BoB are not sacraments, but "these three are one."
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    You can't make this stuff up.
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    Now they argue that St. Emerentiana never received Baptism.
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    Show me her Baptism of Desire Certificate.
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    Show me ANYONE'S Baptism of Desire Certificate!
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    Go ask the priest who proclaims BoD, for a BoD certificate and see what he says.
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    If he asks you why you want one, ask him why he thinks BoD is worth preaching about.
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    If St. Emerentiana sincerely asked God for Baptism of water then certainly God must have provided it for her.
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    How could He have refused her such a simple matter?
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    Just to break His own rule so the liberals could make the Exception into the New Rule?
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    Why can't we just be concerned with the essential matters and leave the speculation for theologians?
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    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #36 on: November 01, 2017, 07:50:37 AM »
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  • .
    I cannot understand why it's so important to some to go around proclaiming their faith in a theory of speculation.
    .It’s not speculation when *all* of the Church’s popes, bishops, catechisms, theologians, canonists teach BOD for 400+ years (again, not saying that it was not taught from the beginning)....that is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium.


    To say it's been supported by theologians for hundreds of years for them is all they need.

    It is the OUM.
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    Never mind the same theologians have been wrong in other cases.
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    The teaching is unanimous, they can’t all be wrong and lead souls into error. This is one way a Catholic can distinguish between true and false teaching. This is why if some NO bishop insisted that there are no such things as guardian angels, you would recognize that this person was spouting heresy. No offense, but it seems to me this is why you run afoul with regard to the sedevacantist position. The Church can’t officially teach error, period. 


    Take St. Thomas Aquinas, for example, who denied the Immaculate Conception, based on a pagan tradition of "ensoulment."

    Firstly, this was before it was defined by the Extraordinary Magisterium. Secondly, he did not deny it, he was just mistaken about ensoulment because science had not advanced to that level of understanding in the 13th century.
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    That alone could have slowed down the Definition for several hundred years.
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    But the Nicene Creed's words "I believe in one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is to be understood in a different way....?

    No, it is understood in only one way.
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    It doesn't say three baptisms, does it?

    There is only one sacrament of baptism. BOD is just a descriptive name of how one can be justified by desiring the sacrament if he dies before actually receiving the actual sacrament, it is NOT a sacrament. 
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    I heard an otherwise reliable priest say that I John 5:8 refers to this -- when the subject of that Scripture is not Baptism.
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    Then he said BoD and BoB are not sacraments, but "these three are one."
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    You can't make this stuff up.
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    Now they argue that St. Emerentiana never received Baptism.
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    Show me her Baptism of Desire Certificate.

    One of the reasons she stands out in the Roman Martyrology is the fact that she *was* a catechumen. Catechumens are by definition NOT baptized.
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    Show me ANYONE'S Baptism of Desire Certificate!

    See above.
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    If St. Emerentiana sincerely asked God for Baptism of water then certainly God must have provided it for her.
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    Yes he could’ve, but he didn’t.

    How could He have refused her such a simple matter?

    God’s ways are not your ways.
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    Just to break His own rule so the liberals could make the Exception into the New Rule?

    Liberals like, Saint Thomas Aquinas, Saint Robert Bellarmine, Saint Alphonsus, Venerable Pius IX?
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    Why can't we just be concerned with the essential matters and leave the speculation for theologians?
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    It’s not speculation.

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #37 on: November 01, 2017, 08:32:13 AM »
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  • Everyone knows that there is only *one* sacrament of baptism and this is performed by using natural water, as the matter and saying the form; “I baptise thee, in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost”.

    ...the grace of the sacrament can be supplied by a desire for the sacrament combined with perfect contrition, if one were to die before he receives the actual sacrament.
    The OP starts us off with contradictions to the Canons of the Council of Trent.

    One is anathema if they say that the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary. It does not say anywhere that the grace of Baptism is all that is necessary. The Canon would most definitely read differently. Maybe like "CANON V.-If any one saith, that (the grace of) baptism is free, that is, not necessary unto salvation; let him be anathema." It's as plain as that. The outward sign and the interior effect are absolutely and necessarily part of the Sacrament. Those who claim like the OP are saying that the outward sign is not necessary are anathema as per Trent. This is FAITH ALONE. Without the actual Sacrament, original sin is not removed nor are we made subject to the Roman Pontiff, nor are we made members of and within the Church. ALL of these things are necessary to be saved.
    There is no difference between an intoxicated man and one full of his own opinion, and one is no more capable of reasoning than the other.----St. Francis de Sales


    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #38 on: November 01, 2017, 08:41:09 AM »
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  • Does anyone know why there is such an explosion of Feeneyism not only on Cathinfo, but in the traditional world in general?

    It's because many Traditonal Catholics come to the realization that all the Vatican II errors derive from Vatican II ecclesiology.  And one cannot come to terms with these ecclesiological questions without addressing the points raised by Father Feeney.  Once these Catholics wrestle with these ecclesiological issues, they come to the realization that most anti-Feeneyites have an ecclesiology that's identical to that of Vatican II and that there's no justification for them to be Traditional Catholics.

    Offline tornpage

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #39 on: November 01, 2017, 08:42:02 AM »
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  • .
    Recusant comment.  "The Council of Trent defined that one who has the desire for the sacrament can be justified and acording to Saint Alphonsus it is de fide."
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    What a rotten liar you are Recusant.  The Council of Trent, Session XIV, gave the exact and full definition on Justification and nowhere is desire mentioned at all!
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    The Council of Trent, Session XIV, Sovereign Pontiff, Julius III., celebrated on the twenty-fifth of November, 1551.
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    Doctrine on the Sacrament of Penance.
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    The sacred and holy, oecumenical and general Synod of Trent, -lawfully assembled in the Holy Ghost, the same Legate and Nuncios of the holy Apostolic See presiding therein, --although, in the decree concerning Justification, there has been, through a certain kind of necessity, on account of the affinity of the subjects, much discourse introduced touching the sacrament of Penance; nevertheless, so great, in these our days, is the multitude of various errors relative to this sacrament, that it will be of no small public utility to have given thereof a more exact and full definition, wherein, all errors having been, under the protection of the Holy Ghost, pointed out and extirpated, Catholic truth may be made clear and resplendent; which (Catholic truth) this holy Synod now sets before all Christians to be perpetually retained.
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    CHAPTER II.
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    On the difference between the Sacrament of Penance and that of Baptism.
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    For the rest, this sacrament is clearly seen to be different from baptism in many respects: for besides that it is very widely different indeed in matter and form, which constitute the essence of a sacrament, it is beyond doubt certain that the minister of baptism need not be a judge, seeing that the Church exercises judgment on no one who has not entered therein through the gate of baptism. For, what have I, saith the apostle, to do to judge them that are without?(m) It is otherwise with those who are of the household of the faith, whom Christ our Lord has once, by the laver of baptism, made the members of His own body; for such, if they should afterwards have defiled themselves by any crime, He would no longer have them cleansed by a repetition of baptism--that being nowise lawful in the Catholic Church-but be placed as criminals before this tribunal; that, by the sentence of the priests, they might be freed, not once, but as often as, being penitent, they should, from their sins committed, flee thereunto. Furthermore, one is the fruit of baptism, and another that of penance. For, by baptism putting on Christ, (n) we are made therein entirely a new creature, obtaining a full and entire remission of all sins : unto which newness and entireness, however, we are no ways able to arrive by the sacrament of Penance, without many tears and great labours on our parts, the divine justice demanding this; so that penance has justly been called by holy Fathers a laborious kind of baptism. (o) And this sacrament of Penance is, for those who have fallen after baptism, necessary unto salvation ; as baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated.
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    Look, Recusant, not one word of desire is mentioned, why is that?  Because it is not taught, it is an error like Pope Julius pointed out in the paragraph heading called "Doctrine on the Sacrament of Penance".
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    Saints themselves, have no power to make something ex cathedra!
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    Liars, cannot help but love lies!
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    You and Neil are perfect for each other!
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    Freedom,

    You quoted Trent:

    Quote
    And this sacrament of Penance is, for those who have fallen after baptism, necessary unto salvation ; as baptism itself is for those who have not as yet been regenerated.

    Simply ask yourself (or look into it if you don't know) if Trent indicates that perfect contrition with a desire for the sacrament of penance can justify? If it can, according to Trent, and the sacrament of penance is "necessary unto salvation; as baptism itself is," then the sacrament of baptism can also avail to justification with a desire for it and perfect contrition, just like the Catechism of Trent says, and which the Council indicates above.

    Canon 5 of the canons on the sacrament of baptism indicates, "If anyone shall say that baptism is optional" - some translations have "free" - "that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." You may have an orthodox understanding of BOD without holding baptism "optional;" in fact, the Catechism of Trent only speaks of the grace of justification being available to an unbaptized in one circumstance: the catechumen who is preparing for, and desires, the sacrament of baptism. That is hardly a situation coming within the anathema of Canon 5, condemning those who say that the sacrament is "optional."

    Canon 2 of the canons on baptism says: "if any one saith, that true and natural water is not of necessity for baptism, and, on that account, wrests, to some sort of metaphor, those words of our Lord Jesus Christ; Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost; let him be anathema." This anathematizes those who essentially do away with the sacrament altogether, and make the words of John 3:5 purely metaphorical, as not even speaking of the sacrament. While Canon 5 condemns those who say the sacrament is "optional," this canon condemns those who say there is no reference to a sacrament in John 3:5.

    There is simply nothing in Trent that anathematizes a recognition of BOD as being a possibility of justification for those who depart with perfect contrition and a desire for the sacrament, which would be indeed odd, because that's what the Catechism of Trent recognizes.

    Such an understanding of BOD preserves the necessity of the sacrament, as Ladislaus has pointed out.

    Is the sacrament of penance "necessary" for those who have fallen after baptism? Yes. Yet the grace of that sacrament is available with perfect contrition and a desire to the sacrament, without destroying the sacrament's necessity.




    "[L]et us hold most firmly that, in accordance with Catholic teaching, there is 'one God, one faith, one baptism' [Eph. 4:5]; it is unlawful to proceed further in inquiry."

    Pope Pius IX, Singulari quadem

    Offline Incredulous

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #40 on: November 01, 2017, 08:43:59 AM »
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  • *All* (as far as I know) popes, saints, theologians, canonists for the last 400 plus years have taught that one who has not been baptized can be saved if they have the desire for the sacrament of baptism and make and act of perfect contrition before they die. This is an act of the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium which is infallible.

    The Council of Trent defined that one who has the desire for the sacrament can be justified and acording to Saint Alphonsus it is de fide. Obviously, I believe that this teaching was even taught by the Church from it’s beginning.
    RS, 

    Fortunately, you're wrong on this point about Trent.

    Your reference is from a doctored English translation, which started appearing in the 1890's. TAN books carries on the error.

    If you reference a Trent Catechism, from 1850 and before, you won't see a whiff of BOD and BOB.

    I've easily found these pre 1850 references, like this one: Trent Catechism (1829)

    A friend on mine went as far as to purchase an antique Catechism from the 1600's and verified the same.

    Father Leonard Feeney made reference to this fact in his self-defense for one Water baptism.
    That is in the original Latin version of the Council of Trent, there is no BOD or BOB.

    And finally, BOD and BOB are not de fide.  

    A quick reference to this is Father Hesse's admission that the issue has not been resolved. He was sympathetic to St. Thomas Aquinas's speculation about the existence of BOD and BOB.

    He had nothing to back it up and he was over-ruled by Pope Innocent III (1215), Pope Boniface VIII (1302) and Pope Eugene IV (1441).

    And since it is the wonderful feast of "All Saints Day" and we're quoting Saints, I dare you to read the Mystical City of God by St. Maria Agreda.   See what the Blessed Mother told her about Water Baptism.  

    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi


    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #41 on: November 01, 2017, 09:21:38 AM »
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  • Quote
    Does anyone know why there is such an explosion of Feeneyism strict EENS'ers (people who believe that dogmas are the final judgement of God on a matter).
    Ladislaus perfectly answered the question.

    Put another way, We believe that ALL dogmas are the final judgement of God on a matter till then in question. If dogma has to be interpreted to mean the opposite of what it clearly says, then it is useless and our Faith is  a vapor.

    On the other side, we have the people who believe in baptism of desire, what we call the BODers. The seminaries of the Novus Ordo's, the SSPX, the sedevacantes , are BOD teachers, they ALL teach that Jews,  Mohamedans, Hindus, Buddhists, indeed all peoples in false religions, can be saved by their belief in a God that rewards. They teach that people can be saved without belief in the Holy Trinity and the Incarnation, without desire to be a Catholic or baptized, and even with impassioned hate for Christ and His Church. THAT is why there is such an explosion of Feeneyism strict EENS'ers .

    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline An even Seven

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #42 on: November 01, 2017, 09:23:01 AM »
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  • Simply ask yourself (or look into it if you don't know) if Trent indicates that perfect contrition with a desire for the sacrament of penance can justify? If it can, according to Trent, and the sacrament of penance is "necessary unto salvation; as baptism itself is," then the sacrament of baptism can also avail to justification with a desire for it and perfect contrition, just like the Catechism of Trent says, and which the Council indicates above.



    Is the sacrament of penance "necessary" for those who have fallen after baptism? Yes. Yet the grace of that sacrament is available with perfect contrition and a desire to the sacrament, without destroying the sacrament's necessity.
    Torn,

    Just look at the language used in these Teachings. It is easy to see that laver or desire is meant to be inclusive. There are other teachings from the past Popes and in Scripture that use the word "AUT" to mean "AND" even though it's translated as or. It means that the whole of it is included. (I can provide other examples from MHFM if you would like).
    When you get to Penance the meaning is clear as it uses terms like "at least", "either/or", "not to be ascribed...independently... " and even explicitly say "before the Sacrament be actually received". The Council goes out of it's way to show how Penance is received in desire. The differences between the Initial Justification and the Restoration are right there in the wording. If Justification could be obtained exactly as the Restoration could the Council would have been explicit and used words like "without (either) the laver of regeneration or (at least) the desire for it". The "either"/"at least" changes the meaning.



    Trent S 6, Ch 4: "And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration, or the desire thereof, as it is written; unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."

    Trent S 6, Ch 14: " and that therein are included not only a cessation from sins, and a detestation thereof, or, a contrite and humble heart, but also the sacramental confession of the said sins,-at least in desire, and to be made in its season,-and sacerdotal absolution; and likewise satisfaction by fasts, alms, prayers, and the other pious exercises of a spiritual life; not indeed for the eternal punishment,-which is, together with the guilt, remitted, either by the sacrament, or by the desire of the sacrament,-but for the temporal punishment, which, as the sacred writings teach, is not always wholly remitted, as is done in baptism'

    Trent S 14, Ch 4: "The Synod teaches moreover, that, although it sometimes happen that this contrition is perfect through charity, and reconciles man with God before this sacrament be actually received, the said reconciliation, nevertheless, is not to be ascribed to that contrition, independently of the desire of the sacrament which is included therein."

    There is no difference between an intoxicated man and one full of his own opinion, and one is no more capable of reasoning than the other.----St. Francis de Sales

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #43 on: November 01, 2017, 09:28:44 AM »
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  • On the other side, we have what we call the BODers. The seminaries of the Novus Ordo's, the SSPX, the sedevacantes, ...
    Are you (^*&ing kidding me? First, people like me catch shit because, yeah, I back people like the Dimonds, who also catch shit, in no small part BECAUSE THEY STOMP ON BOD/B MORE THAN ANYONE ELSE, then people like me get batched with a bunch of (UYTtard heretics, WHO MOSTLY THINK THAT THE CONCILIAR FAKES ARE ACTUALLY POPES...

    Just choke yourself Blowhican.
    Dimwit.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Why so many Feeneyites on Cathinfo?
    « Reply #44 on: November 01, 2017, 09:29:40 AM »
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  • RS,

    Fortunately, you're wrong on this point about Trent.

    Your reference is from a doctored English translation, which started appearing in the 1890's. TAN books carries on the error.

    If you reference a Trent Catechism, from 1850 and before, you won't see a whiff of BOD and BOB.


    I've easily found these pre 1850 references, like this one: Trent Catechism (1829)

    A friend on mine went as far as to purchase an antique Catechism from the 1600's and verified the same.

    Father Leonard Feeney made reference to this fact in his self-defense for one Water baptism.
    That is in the original Latin version of the Council of Trent, there is no BOD or BOB.
    Didn't know that, thanks.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

     

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