Author Topic: Why isnt RR or SV victorious yet? Been 45 years! (Read 7914 times)

cantatedomino · « **Reply #45 on:** May 18, 2014, 02:25:11 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

I think the key is to remember that the Pope question is a prudential decision and nothing more.

The pope question belongs to the speculative order, and yet has nothing to do with the determination of correct praxis.

This is evident from the observable fact that the two contradictory speculative conclusions nevertheless arrive at the exact same praxis: They both refuse to place themselves under the authority of heretics.

As this is the case, we must conclude that one need not arrive at the correct answer to the pope question to remain Catholic and save one's soul. This question is one, therefore, where Catholics have liberty until the Church rules definitively.

On the other hand, there is a speculative question that Catholics are bound to get right in order to remain Catholic and save their souls. This is the question of whether or not the pope, the cardinals, and the novus ordo bishops are Catholics who uphold and defend the Faith. This is THE question that drives praxis everywhere and in every camp: in novusordoland, in indultland, in SSPXLand; in R&Rland, and in SVland.

Both R&R and SV answer the question in the negative. This is THE principle in which the two position converge. Only the R&R position, the shamelessly dishonest of the two, does not readily and publicly admit this very first principle of its own praxis.

R&R is a flagrant phony; wherefore it has absolutely no claim to anyone's sympathy.

The infighting is shameful, but what is totally mind-boggling is this: SSPXBrand no longer answers the sine qua non question in the negative. They are now alongside the novus ordo and the indult, in affirming that these heretics are Catholic. This affirmation is still mostly implicit, but it will become explicit in a very little while.

And here's the rub: The shame of R&R is its duplicity. Because it refuses to boldly affirm that They Ain't Catholic, all the while acting in accordance with that conclusion; it is capable of hiding all manner of infidelity in its subtle, ambiguous, diplomatic expressionism. The evidence for this assertion lies in the fact that Menzingen had no trouble hiding its modernism behind R&R for well over a decade.

Where do the positions converge?

They converge in this first principle of post-conciliar true Catholic praxis: They Ain't Catholic.

Wherefore we must shed the division over a non-determinative speculative question, and throw off the mask that hides all duplicity.

As long as R&R shamelessly and deceitfully refuses to affirm, They Ain't Catholic, Catholics will keep killing Catholics with friendly fire.

We are killing each other because our leaders do not say the truth.

Only the truth will heal the divisions.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #46 on:** May 18, 2014, 02:28:03 PM »

Quote from: Domitilla

The above post is filled with truth and beauty. Again, I am prevented from giving CD a "thumbs up".

As you say of late: Bella premunt hostilia: Our foes press hard FROM INSIDE.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #47 on:** May 18, 2014, 02:30:55 PM »

Quote from: Matthew

I was a devout SSPX-supporter for years. But thanks to Bishop Williamson, I never got over-patriotic about that organization. I followed them only insofar as they were faithful, and without too much difficulty detached myself from them (emotionally, etc.) once they betrayed and headed back towards Modernist Rome. If it weren't for that psychological preparation, I might have ended up following them back to Modernist Rome as we speak (as many unfortunately are!)

Indeed.

We must remain Catholics in the face of an avalanche of pressure - and soon to become wholesale sacramental blackmail - to surrender and become mere organizational rubes.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #48 on:** May 18, 2014, 02:33:26 PM »

Quote from: Matto

Quote from: Matthew
You presume we must treat the Novus Ordo as non-Catholic at some point.

I treat the Novus Ordo as non-Catholic. Though I believe it is possible to remain a true Catholic within the Novus Ordo, the official religion of the Novus Ordo is non-Catholic.

Yup.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #49 on:** May 18, 2014, 02:34:59 PM »

Quote from: ggreg

Perhaps God wants no human camp claiming "victory", so we are all forced to recognize that victory over Satan belongs to His mother and Her alone.

That is my theory anyway.

I think that when the chastisement comes we will ALL be humbled.

Yup.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #50 on:** May 18, 2014, 02:37:41 PM »

Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: Matto
Quote from: Matthew
You presume we must treat the Novus Ordo as non-Catholic at some point.

I treat the Novus Ordo as non-Catholic. Though I believe it is possible to remain a true Catholic within the Novus Ordo, the official religion of the Novus Ordo is non-Catholic.

I agree with this. However, I do think it is much harder to be a true Catholic in the NO since typically you are unaware of the true teachings of the Catholic Faith when you are entrenched in the NO.

Yup.

Stats showing the almost universal denial of transubstantiation is evidence of this; and points to the reality of widespread invalidity of administered 'sacraments,' due to inability on the part of the minister to conceive the correct intention.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #51 on:** May 18, 2014, 02:39:59 PM »

Quote from: Ladislaus

That's why, Matthew, it was refreshing to see you change your opinion on the geocentrist issue, not because I happen to be a geocentrist myself, but because upon examining the evidence you were willing to go where the truth led you. That's a rare thing to see.

It's an awesome thing!

Quite edifying!

cantatedomino · « **Reply #52 on:** May 18, 2014, 02:53:35 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria

I guess my opinion on this doesn't amount to a hill of beans but here goes anyway. The driving factor behind one's position with respect to R&R vs. SV is the position of your primary priest. More or less. Of course, the fact that you are a traditional Catholic is a pure grace. And generally, I find that almost all traditionalists are primarily concerned about worshipping God in a manner that will be pleasing to Him. The theology behind it all is secondary for most of us. Raise your hand if you diligently worked out the theology first and then sought out a priest or a chapel which conformed to your position. I doubt we will see many hands although I'm sure there are a few whose study did influence their choice of chapel.

I was baptized Catholic as an infant prior to the promulgation of any of the docuмents of V2 but I was raised and "catechised" in the post-Conciliar era. Like the vast majority of my peers I fell away from the Church. But by the grace of God I was inspired by the funeral of my best friend's father to start going back to Church (Conciliar). By the grace of God, I decided to put my heart into it. I was fortunate to find others who were also putting their heart into it but it was a mixed bag. First I fell in with some charismatic renewal types. They were sincere and they were devoted to JP2 and obedient to the Conciliar authorities but I was never comfortable around that type of thing. I gravitated to more conservative groups. I ended up going to a Conciliar seminary. It was conservative and obedient to JP2 but nevertheless I was there when the sex-abuse crisis came to light in the early 2000s. I was disillusioned by that and I was starting to have my doubts. I never saw any kind of overt ɧoɱosɛҳųαƖity in the seminary but there sure were a lot of very effeminate men there. By the grace of God I was fortunate to have had a strong desire to learn from the saints so I read a lot of books on the lives of the saints (God bless Thomas Nelson and his TAN books company!). I became frustrated that the seminary seemed to be blocking me from imitating the saints. So I left. The first thing I did was go to a traditional Latin Mass (ecclesia dei indult Mass). Within 10 minutes I knew I was home. By the grace of God, someone was leaving old Remnants and Catholic Family News issues in the back of the Church and the pastor of the Church was a laissez faire kind of guy so I started sponging up all the information contained therein and it started to dawn on me that the reason the Church was so screwed up was V2. Then Cardinal O'Malley closed my indult Church (he didn't care that from a tiny little parish of no more than 300 people came more vocations than any other parish in the entire archdiocese -- those vocations didn't count because they were traditional vocations). That made me very angry and I started looking around for somewhere else to go. Around the same time the SSPX committed to a greater presence in Boston. I started going to Mass there. It was great. I started to learn about the problems with the validity of Conciliar sacraments. I was conditionally confirmed by Bishop Tissier. I made retreats in Ridgefield. It was great! My faith was getting stronger. And then in 2012 Bishop Fellay decided to do the unthinkable and make a deal with neo-modernist Rome. I was alarmed. I started following what Bishop Williamson was saying as well as going to Masses of Fr. Pfeiffer and Fr. Hewko and Fr. Chazal. I split my time between the Resistance and my local SSPX chapel. The Resistance was only having 1 Mass/month so the other weeks I continued to go to the SSPX chapel. I was hopeful that the SSPX would stop the nonsense. But then Benedict resigned and Francis rose to power. I immediately knew this guy was a bitter enemy of tradition. Ever since I started going to the SSPX chapel I thought there was a good possibility that a future pope might declare the Conciliar popes to be antipopes but I never seriously looked into the SV thesis. But when Francis said "there is no Catholic God" I was beside myself. I couldn't believe that this man could be the ultimate authority of the Catholic Church. I started seriously looking into the SV thesis and I was very surprised to find that it was rock solid. I knew that SV was considered a super-heresy in the SSPX. Any time Bishop Fellay wanted to cow someone into line he would accuse them of an SV-mindset. But I thought maybe SV would be tolerated in the Resistance. Alas, those hopes were dashed late in 2013 by some statements from the Resistance priests. So I started going to the local CMRI chapel and a Church in Lawrence, MA (Sacred Heart) associated with Bishop McKenna and Bishop Morello. I am happy to be freed from the threat of being absorbed into the Conciliar Church. I can rest assured that the sacraments are valid. I am also very pleased that I have found the CMRI because almost from the very beginning of my return to the Catholic faith I had a strong devotion to Our Lady. I wear the brown scapular and pray the Rosary daily. I'm hopeful that Our Lady will obtain a final victory for me.

The way I see it, the R&R position is becoming instinct. The vast majority of R&R is going towards the FSSP position with Bishop Fellay leading the way. Many of the remaining R&R folks are at the very least sympathetic to the SV position. Many of them at the very least think that a future pope could declare the Conciliar popes to be antipopes. As the Conciliar popes become less and less Catholic (I foresee women deaconesses on the horizon), more and more of the remaining R&R folks will lose confidence in the R&R position and join the SV camp. I think Pete Vere is right about that. I think a big factor pushing people to the SV position is the doubts about the validity of the Conciliar sacraments. Once you admit that the Conciliar episcopal consecration is very doubtful it is hard to justify R&R. Who are you recognizing? Laymen pretending to be priests and bishops?

Daggone interesting post, CM!!! I loved reading it. Your life parallels mine quite a bit.

I find myself in a very real place of limbo.

I spit on R&R and crush it under my feet.

I do not embrace SV because I do not need to embrace SV in order to remain Catholic.

I suppose my position is TRUTH:

- THEY Ain't Catholic.

- To submit to THEM is a mortal sin against the Faith.

- The pope question is a speculative matter which the Church has not pronounced on yet; ergo Catholics have liberty to speculate on possible solutions. They have absolutely no power or authority to be dogmatic about their conclusions.

- To refuse to publicly affirm that They Ain't Catholic is, in the objective order, the mortal sin of scandal, as this refusal to clearly state the truth leads souls away from Christ and into perdition.

Domitilla · « **Reply #53 on:** May 18, 2014, 03:40:23 PM »

"I find myself in a very real place of limbo" (CD)

I believe that many of us are in that place. Of late, I have likened my position to that of Lazarus, Martha, Mary Magdalene, and Joseph of Arimithea when they were condemned to enter the oarless, rudderless, and sail-free boat. They had the Holy Faith and a Holy Hope in God Amighty to provide a safe harbor (hoping they would not become lunch for a school of sharks along the way!)

I have requested a small corner and have taken refuge in the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and pray, pray, pray with as much confidence as I am able to muster: "Star of the stormy sea of my mortal life, may your light shine upon me so that I do not stray from the path that leads me to heaven." (prayer taken from the Testament of Mother Mariana of Jesus Torres in regard to Our Lady of Good Success)

Clemens Maria · « **Reply #54 on:** May 18, 2014, 04:23:43 PM »

Quote from: cantatedomino

I find myself in a very real place of limbo.
...
I spit on R&R and crush it under my feet.

I do not embrace SV because I do not need to embrace SV in order to remain Catholic.

The big problem with trying to be agnostic with regard to the SV vs. R&R approach (or I guess in your case, Cantate, you would be agnostic only about SV) is that it limits your response. If you are SV you should believe that the next pope will come from the ranks of traditional clergy. Whereas, if you are R&R you have to believe that the next Catholic pope will come from the Conciliar Sect. This is somewhat of an oversimplification but it is a very important difference. There will be another Catholic Pope. The only question is how will we get one? Will we wait for the Conciliar Sect to produce one or will we work to elect a traditional bishop? One's position will dictate the direction of one's efforts to resolve the crisis.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #55 on:** May 18, 2014, 04:53:01 PM »

Quote from: Domitilla

"I find myself in a very real place of limbo" (CD)

I believe that many of us are in that place. Of late, I have likened my position to that of Lazarus, Martha, Mary Magdalene, and Joseph of Arimithea when they were condemned to enter the oarless, rudderless, and sail-free boat. They had the Holy Faith and a Holy Hope in God Amighty to provide a safe harbor (hoping they would not become lunch for a school of sharks along the way!)

I have requested a small corner and have taken refuge in the Immaculate Heart of Mary, and pray, pray, pray with as much confidence as I am able to muster: "Star of the stormy sea of my mortal life, may your light shine upon me so that I do not stray from the path that leads me to heaven." (prayer taken from the Testament of Mother Mariana of Jesus Torres in regard to Our Lady of Good Success)

Beautiful words!!!

Much wisdom!

Faith. Hope. Charity.

Domitilla · « **Reply #56 on:** May 18, 2014, 04:56:01 PM »

Dear Clemens Maria,

Our Lady of Fatima stated: "Only I can help you." She will resolve this unprecedented crisis after we have suffered according to the measure we so richly deserve. Kyrie Eleison.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #57 on:** May 18, 2014, 05:00:28 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria

Quote from: cantatedomino
I find myself in a very real place of limbo.
...
I spit on R&R and crush it under my feet.

I do not embrace SV because I do not need to embrace SV in order to remain Catholic.

The big problem with trying to be agnostic with regard to the SV vs. R&R approach (or I guess in your case, Cantate, you would be agnostic only about SV) is that it limits your response. If you are SV you should believe that the next pope will come from the ranks of traditional clergy. Whereas, if you are R&R you have to believe that the next Catholic pope will come from the Conciliar Sect. This is somewhat of an oversimplification but it is a very important difference. There will be another Catholic Pope. The only question is how will we get one? Will we wait for the Conciliar Sect to produce one or will we work to elect a traditional bishop? One's position will dictate the direction of one's efforts to resolve the crisis.

Question for you, CM: Do you hold that one must proclaim SV in order to be Catholic, remain in a state of grace, and save their soul?

If this is not required of Catholics, then it is impossible for anyone to be 'agnostic,' with regard to this question. My conviction is that I am not at all obligated to take a position on the pope question; whereas I will go to hell if I refuse to take a position on the question of whether God exists.

As for where the next pope comes from - I know that God can do all things, can make a son of Abraham out of a rock. As St. Martha said to the Lord with perfect faith: But now also I know that whatsoever Thou wilt ask of God, God will give it Thee.

God can make Bergoglio a Saint.

Where the Catholic Pope we await comes from is God's secret and God's mighty work.

I only pray and wait for it.

cantatedomino · « **Reply #58 on:** May 18, 2014, 05:01:29 PM »

Quote from: Domitilla

Dear Clemens Maria,

Our Lady of Fatima stated: "Only I can help you." She will resolve this unprecedented crisis after we have suffered according to the measure we so richly deserve. Kyrie Eleison.

Yup.

Matthew · « **Reply #59 on:** May 18, 2014, 05:09:17 PM »

Quote from: Clemens Maria

The big problem with trying to be agnostic with regard to the SV vs. R&R approach (or I guess in your case, Cantate, you would be agnostic only about SV) is that it limits your response. If you are SV you should believe that the next pope will come from the ranks of traditional clergy. Whereas, if you are R&R you have to believe that the next Catholic pope will come from the Conciliar Sect. This is somewhat of an oversimplification but it is a very important difference. There will be another Catholic Pope. The only question is how will we get one? Will we wait for the Conciliar Sect to produce one or will we work to elect a traditional bishop? One's position will dictate the direction of one's efforts to resolve the crisis.

You see, posts like this bolster the assertion (made by myself and Sean Johnson, among others) that Conclavist Sedevacantists are the truest specimen of SVs. They are the most consistent.

If you're not "waiting and seeing" like the rest of us, then you are a conclavist. And conclavists don't have a great track record; they end up with results like Pope Michael -- rightly ridiculed by the whole world.