I have read Fr. Cekada's arguments against the validity on the 1968 episcopal consecrations, that they are formaly invalid.

But here is MY problem: The ENTIRE prayer of consecration is clearly episcopal:

"God the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Father of mercies and God of all consolation, you dwell in heaven, yet look with compassion on all that is humble.  You know all things before they came to be; by your gracious word you have established the plan of your Church.

From the beginning you chose the descendants of Abraham to be your holy nation.  You established rulers and priests, and did not leave your sanctuary without ministers to serve you.  From the creation of the world you have been pleased to be glorified by those whom you have chosen.

    The following part of the prayer is recited by all the consecrating bishops, with hands joined:

So now pour out upon this chosen one the power that is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to his holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.

    Then the principal consecrator continues alone.

Father, you know all hearts.  You have chosen your servant for the office of bishop.  May he be a shepherd to your holy flock, and a high priest blameless in your sight, ministering to you night and day; may he always gain the blessing of your favor and offer the gifts of your holy Church.  Through the Spirit who gives the grace of high priesthood grant him the power to forgive sins as you have commanded, to assign ministries as you have decreed, and to loose every bond by the authority which you gave to your apostles.  May he be pleasing to you by his gentleness and purity of heart, presenting a fragrant offering to you, through Jesus Christ, your Son, through whom glory and power and honor are yours with the Holy Spirit in your holy Church, now and for ever.  R.  Amen."

How does that NOT indicate correct form, when it is the ENTIRE consecratory rpayer, not just a section?

Gregory, I think the answer to your question can be found in Pope Pius XII Sacramentum Ordinis.

Let me first pose this question: if a baptism, or the Holy Mass, employs every required adherence to the prescribed rubric but fails to elicit the essential form of the sacrament, does the strict adherence to the surrounding rubrics supply what is absent in the essential form?

Of course, the answer is no.  Such a baptism or mass would never be valid.

Sacramentum Ordinis says:

Quote from: Sacramentum Ordinis, no. 4

Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects - namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit

I think you will find that the NREC fails to meet this requirement quite blatantly.  Here is the essential form of the New Rite:

Quote from: New Rite of Episcopal Consecration

So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.

Power, not powers, is referenced in the form.  And even if that were not the case, it is ambiguous (NOT univocal) what power or powers are/is being bestowed.  Pope Pius XII states very clearly that the power of orders and the Holy Ghost must be applied in the form.  The NREC does not meet this requirement.

Well, the thing is, we can consider this a schismatic rite, so Sacramentum Ordinis doesn't really apply, because it isn't the same Rite. Purely objectively speaking, as if we were examining the prayers of schismatics, as the Orthodox, why wouldn't this consecration be acceptable when it denominates the power of the orders, in itself?

Quote from: Gregory I

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Gregory, I think the answer to your question can be found in Pope Pius XII Sacramentum Ordinis.

Let me first pose this question: if a baptism, or the Holy Mass, employs every required adherence to the prescribed rubric but fails to elicit the essential form of the sacrament, does the strict adherence to the surrounding rubrics supply what is absent in the essential form?

Of course, the answer is no.  Such a baptism or mass would never be valid.

Sacramentum Ordinis says:

Quote from: Sacramentum Ordinis, no. 4

Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects - namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit

I think you will find that the NREC fails to meet this requirement quite blatantly.  Here is the essential form of the New Rite:

Quote from: New Rite of Episcopal Consecration

So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.

Power, not powers, is referenced in the form.  And even if that were not the case, it is ambiguous (NOT univocal) what power or powers are/is being bestowed.  Pope Pius XII states very clearly that the power of orders and the Holy Ghost must be applied in the form.  The NREC does not meet this requirement.

Well, the thing is, we can consider this a schismatic rite, so Sacramentum Ordinis doesn't really apply, because it isn't the same Rite. Purely objectively speaking, as if we were examining the prayers of schismatics, as the Orthodox, why wouldn't this consecration be acceptable when it denominates the power of the orders, in itself?

This is what Fr. Hesse said about the new rites.  I've never found it a very convincing argument-- the NREC isn't a Catholic rite, therefore Catholic laws governing the validity of sacraments cannot be used to arrive at a conclusion about its validity?  Seems sophist.

Because it is out of thin air basically? It doesn't at least have the sanction of constant usage as the Eastern Orthodox do?

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Quote from: Gregory I

Quote from: Mithrandylan

Gregory, I think the answer to your question can be found in Pope Pius XII Sacramentum Ordinis.

Let me first pose this question: if a baptism, or the Holy Mass, employs every required adherence to the prescribed rubric but fails to elicit the essential form of the sacrament, does the strict adherence to the surrounding rubrics supply what is absent in the essential form?

Of course, the answer is no.  Such a baptism or mass would never be valid.

Sacramentum Ordinis says:

Quote from: Sacramentum Ordinis, no. 4

Wherefore, after invoking the divine light, We of Our Apostolic Authority and from certain knowledge declare, and as far as may be necessary decree and provide: that the matter, and the only matter, of the Sacred Orders of the Diaconate, the Priesthood, and the Episcopacy is the imposition of hands; and that the form, and the only form, is the words which determine the application of this matter, which univocally signify the sacramental effects - namely the power of Order and the grace of the Holy Spirit

I think you will find that the NREC fails to meet this requirement quite blatantly.  Here is the essential form of the New Rite:

Quote from: New Rite of Episcopal Consecration

So now pour out upon this chosen one that power which is from you, the governing Spirit whom you gave to your beloved Son, Jesus Christ, the Spirit given by him to the holy apostles, who founded the Church in every place to be your temple for the unceasing glory and praise of your name.

Power, not powers, is referenced in the form.  And even if that were not the case, it is ambiguous (NOT univocal) what power or powers are/is being bestowed.  Pope Pius XII states very clearly that the power of orders and the Holy Ghost must be applied in the form.  The NREC does not meet this requirement.

Well, the thing is, we can consider this a schismatic rite, so Sacramentum Ordinis doesn't really apply, because it isn't the same Rite. Purely objectively speaking, as if we were examining the prayers of schismatics, as the Orthodox, why wouldn't this consecration be acceptable when it denominates the power of the orders, in itself?

This is what Fr. Hesse said about the new rites.  I've never found it a very convincing argument-- the NREC isn't a Catholic rite, therefore Catholic laws governing the validity of sacraments cannot be used to arrive at a conclusion about its validity?  Seems sophist.

Because it is out of thin air basically? It doesn't at least have the sanction of constant usage as the Eastern Orthodox do?

Not only the Eastern "Orthodox" but the Eastern "Catholic" as well. Specifically, the Coptic and Maronite rites, which have been long time approved by Holy Mother Church. Do sedevacantists dare to question the validity of Episcopal consecrations done in traditional Eastern rites the Church has always recognized, such as in the Coptic and West Syrian Churches, on the same grounds?

effunde super hunc electum eam virtutem, quae a te est, Spiritum principalem, quem dedisti dilecto Filio tuo Iesu Christo, quem ipse donavit sanctis Apostolis, qui constituerunt Ecclesiam per singula loca ut sanctuarium tuum, in gloriam et laudem indeficientem nominis tui.


Pour forth on this chosen one that power which is from Thee, the governing Spirit Whom Thou gavest to Thy beloved Son Jesus Christ, Whom He gave to the holy Apostles, Who founded the Church in every place as Thy sanctuary, unto the glory and unceasing praise of Thy name.

effunde virtutem Spiritus tui hegemonici quem donasti Apostolis sanctis tuis in nomine tuo.

Pour forth the power of Thy leading Spirit which Thou gavest to Thy holy Apostles in Thy name.

illumina eum et effunde super eum gratiam et intelligentiam Spiritus tui principalis, quem tradidisti dilecto Filio tuo, Domino nostro Jesu Christo...qui datus fuit sanctis tuis...

Enlighten him and pour forth upon him the grace and understanding of Thy governing Spirit, Whom Thou hast bequeathed to Thy Son, our Lord Jesus Christ...Who was given to Thy saints