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Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: Last Tradhican on November 06, 2017, 02:44:33 PM

Title: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 06, 2017, 02:44:33 PM
With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically docuмented teaching in the Church.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Neil Obstat on November 06, 2017, 03:02:37 PM
With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX.

If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis," how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically docuмented teaching in the Church.
.
You have expressed well something I have thought in roughly the same terms but never put it to words. Thank you.
.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 06, 2017, 03:28:24 PM
With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes groups and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically docuмented teaching in the Church.
I now underlined groups in the first part and added groups to the second part to make it super clear. The MHFM for instance is sede and believes in EENS as it is written, but the Dimond's are not a sede group, they do not have a seminary, priests and bishops.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 06, 2017, 03:49:48 PM
Well ain’t that something!

 Neil, L.T., the Dimond bros., and a few other homemade theologians know more than All the Saints, Canonists, theologians, Popes, Bishops for over the last 400 years combined!*

Pride comes before the fall.

*This does not mean that BOD was not believed from the very foundations of the Church.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 06, 2017, 03:52:11 PM
With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all...

>>> No, they don't; so, next?

...
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 06, 2017, 03:54:30 PM
That's not an argument.
I know, you know more than Saint Alphonsus, right?
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 06, 2017, 03:56:13 PM
There's a horrible tendency among Catholics to resort to appeals to authority and ad hominems, and by appeals to authority I do not mean valid references ot infallible teachings.
You bet I will appeal to authority, especially when they are unanimous.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 06, 2017, 03:59:10 PM
I now underlined groups in the first part and added groups to the second part to make it super clear. The MHFM for instance is sede and believes in EENS as it is written, but the Dimond's are not a sede group, they do not have a seminary, priests and bishops.
And people who don't back-peddle into excuse are already "super clear" because they don't play word games like retro-fitting meaning to a word or phrase instead of just admitting to an error of expression.

Learn to think or to not lie, whichever it is.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 06, 2017, 04:09:47 PM
With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically docuмented teaching in the Church.
Good on you.

I OTOH saw Fr. Sanborn go from a young, holy priest and powerful speaker, zealous for souls Catholic priest, to a raging pope denying sedevacantist in what seemed like under 3 months. I often picture his young face, snarled in an inordinate rage when he was slamming the pope from the pulpit trying to convince the faithful that Pope Paul VI was not the pope, when debating the sedes here.
 
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 06, 2017, 04:31:38 PM
I also know that St. Alphonsus claimed that Trent teaches that men can be justified by "desire", which it doesn't.  See here, though again I don;t expect you to be able to actually follow and address an argument as to the turth opf its premises or valdity of its deductive steps, only attacking its conclusion with vagues statements abotu unanimity about something. https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/dogma-gt-desire-and-laver-of-regeneration-cannot-be-separated/msg577508/#msg577508 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/dogma-gt-desire-and-laver-of-regeneration-cannot-be-separated/msg577508/#msg577508)
You do realize that even Father Feeney didn’t reject the dogmatic teaching that one can be justified by desire? 
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 06, 2017, 04:34:13 PM
Good on you.

I OTOH saw Fr. Sanborn go from a young, holy priest and powerful speaker, zealous for souls Catholic priest, to a raging pope denying sedevacantist in what seemed like under 3 months. I often picture his young face, snarled in an inordinate rage when he was slamming the pope from the pulpit trying to convince the faithful that Pope Paul VI was not the pope, when debating the sedes here.
 
And you have such kind words for your admittedly heretical pope......
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 06, 2017, 04:36:06 PM
And you have such kind words for your admittedly heretical pope......
He's your pope too, but looks like you'll find that out the hard way.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 06, 2017, 05:27:27 PM
Quote
 since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically docuмented teaching in the Church.


And isn't it strange that those who don't understand EENS and make it the most dogmatically docuмented teaching in the Church, but still regard Francis as their pope, and Francis is the biggest teacher that EENS does not apply to Catholics?  
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 06, 2017, 08:19:48 PM
I haven't said anything to the contrary, though I don't care what Father Feeney did or did not teach.  I haven't even stated my position on BOD. What I have stated is that the only passage in Trent to mention "desire" in this context does not teach that this "desire" is a sufficient condition for justification to be effected. But again, I'm fairly certain given your showing thus far that you can't even grasp the simple logical truth that a propositional expression of the form (¬P⇒¬Q)⇒(P⇒Q) is not logically valid, i.e., necessity does not imply sufficiency, because in parctice you refuse to even consider arguments. But of course you don't, since "implicit desire" style BOD advocates are proposing something in direct and explicit contradition to plain meaning of scripture and formal definitions of the extraordinary magisterium and for which there is no evidence of its existence in divine revelation, so that they have to take a few quotations from orthodox theologians almost exlucisvely on catechumens, twist them out of all context to fit their own ideas through ye olde fallacy of equivocation, and, present this "salvation for those who die as Jєωs, pagans, etc." as magisterial under, to paraphrase Vatican I, the specious notion of a "deeper understanding", born not of anything in divine revelation but based entirely upon a "theological argument" from ideas about God's mercy: you NEVER consider arguments but just cut-and-paste bomb others like Protestants, only replacing infallible though misnterpreted scripture with fallible writings that directly contradict only-to-be-read-literally formal definitions of the extradorinary magisterium when understood in your proposed sense, then shouting things like "unanimous opinion" or, if a Novus Ordo cultist, "The CCC says!". Yeah,  the  unanimous opinion of theologians that the unanimous opinion of theologians is infallible in declaring what the unanimous opinion of theologians is - where that middle one is in practice the opinion of anti-EENS theologians writing after the birth of modernism - did I get that bit of logical merry-go-round-riding correct?

Incidentally, this is the same St. Alphonsus who states that:


“See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church. How many are born among the pagans, among the Jєωs, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.” (Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219.)

“‘Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles – the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons – is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.’ (First Command. No. 8.).”

“Still we answer the Semipelagians, and say, that infidels who arrive at the use of reason, and are not converted to the Faith, cannot be excused, because though they do not receive sufficient proximate grace, still they are not deprived of remote grace, as a means of becoming converted.  But what is this remote grace?  St. Thomas explains it, when he says, that if anyone was brought up in the wilds, or even among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius.  Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor [St. Thomas], God, at least remotely, gives to infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.” (The History of Heresies, Refutation 6, #11, p. 457)


So if you're claiming that St. Alphonsus taught that people who died without the Christian faith could be saved by some baptism of "implicit desire", you're a liar. And how could he have when the Athanasian creed says explicictly that "WHOSOEVER WISHES/WILLS/DESIRES (volunt) TO BE SAVED, it is before all things necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith", so that even if we assume BOD to be possible, one who did have merely "DESIRE" would STILL HAVE TO have FAITH in the Trinity and Incarnation.
The sad part is that you think you know something because you read a couple of books by Fred and Bob Dimond. Remember these words, kid and meditate on them.......pride comes before the fall.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Ladislaus on November 06, 2017, 08:26:07 PM
The sad part is that you think you know something because you read a couple of books by Fred and Bob Dimond. Remember these words, kid and meditate on them.......pride comes before the fall.

Look in the mirror.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Ladislaus on November 06, 2017, 08:27:52 PM
I can accept debate about BOD for catechumens and BOB for martyrs.

But I cannot accept anyone who claims that salvation is possible without explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation as anything but a dullard, a weasel and an apostate, nor anyone who claims that such a thing as baptism of "implicit desire", for those who die as apostates in denial or ignorance of Christ (which all Jєωs, Muslims, pagans and atheists are), is anywhere to be found in divine revelation, either cotained in the scriptures or in apostolic tradition, as anything but a damned liar too.

You'll find this same, very reasonable attitude, among most "Feeneyites".  Dimonds are not, strictly speaking, Feeneyites.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 06, 2017, 08:46:00 PM
Look in the mirror.
I do. You see the difference between you, the other deniers of BOD and me, is that I follow the *unanimous* teaching of all the theologians, saints, popes bishops, canonists on BOD. Period. End of story. You and your fellow revolutionaries are not much different than say a Dollinger, you try to lead when you should follow. I long to follow, I love to be obedient to the Church. I pray for the day when we have a pope so that I don’t have to be so dependent on my own judgements. That is a massive difference between you and me.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 07, 2017, 07:57:48 AM
With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically docuмented teaching in the Church.
Read carefully, any of you defending the sede groups that I am talking about, for I was very precise, I said that they teach that people can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form, that they teach that the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says. 

It says nothing about baptism of desire of the catechumen, which I consider an innocuous theory, other than that it has been used as a stepping stone and morphed into salvation without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 07, 2017, 11:13:35 AM
Read carefully, any of you defending the sede groups that I am talking about, for I was very precise, I said that they teach that people can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form, that they teach that the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says.

It says nothing about baptism of desire of the catechumen, which I consider an innocuous theory, other than that it has been used as a stepping stone and morphed into salvation without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form.

The 1917 Code of Canon Law is very clear on the topic:

CAN. 1239 § 2. Catechumeni qui nulla sua culpa sine baptismo moriantur, baptizatis accensendi sunt.

"Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."
The Sacred Canons by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.

Commentary on the Code:
"The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of Desire."


May I inquire of which "sede groups" you are referring?  And if at all possible, a reference to the statement made?
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 07, 2017, 12:36:05 PM

Quote
The 1917 Code of Canon Law is very clear on the topic:

CAN. 1239 § 2. Catechumeni qui nulla sua culpa sine baptismo moriantur, baptizatis accensendi sunt.

"Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."
The Sacred Canons by Rev. John A. Abbo. St.T.L., J.C.D., and Rev. Jerome D. Hannan, A.M., LL.B., S.T.D., J.C.D.

Commentary on the Code:
"The reason for this rule is that they are justly supposed to have met death united to Christ through Baptism of Desire."


May I inquire of which "sede groups" you are referring?  And if at all possible, a reference to the statement made?
My OP is very clear and I repeated and highlighted the point that this is not about baptism of desire of the catechumen, and yet another person writes about baptism of desire of the catechumen. Go figure!
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 08, 2017, 12:12:58 AM
Hey JAM,

In case you were unaware, he is a list of quotes, from sources that are just as authoritative as the source you provided, that completely contradict your quote. Thought you might like to know.
It is not possible for the Church to teach individual truths that would contradict one another.  It can only be that you have a misunderstanding of one or the other, or both.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 08, 2017, 12:15:45 AM
Because JAM knows that if he can slip this in there, it opens the door for all the rest of the stuff you are talking about. If one can be saved, in whichever way, without the actual reception of Baptism in water, then the Sacrament of Baptism is not necessary. It would be allowable to assert any type of exception so long as one makes a vague reference to something Church related being necessary. You guys who claim to be lenient on certain types of reception of the Sacrament other than through water, are opening the door just by making that little distinction.
It is disheartening that you would attribute ill intentions to me.  I provided a reference to Canon Law, nothing more.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 08, 2017, 01:29:24 AM
Quote
It is not possible for the Church to teach individual truths that would contradict one another.  It can only be that you have a misunderstanding of one or the other, or both.
There's an example of a person winging it with an end run.

This person obviously is defending the sede groups & SSPX teaching, the subject of this OP is about, since he has been clearly warned three times that this thread is about the sede groups and SSPX teaching that people can be saved without  baptism and Christ in any way shape or form (without belief in baptism, without desire to be Catholic, without belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity), in short, this person also totally rejects the dogmatic Athanasian Creed, he is 100% in agreement with the sede groups and SSPX on this matter.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”


Athanasian Creed (4th Century)
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 08, 2017, 01:35:34 AM
There's an example of a person winging it with an end run.

This person obviously is defending the sede groups & SSPX teaching, the subject of this OP is about, since he has been clearly warned three times that this thread is about the sede groups and SSPX teaching that people can be saved without  baptism and Christ in any way shape or form (without belief in baptism, without desire to be Catholic, without belief in Christ and the Holy Trinity), in short, this person also totally rejects the dogmatic Athanasian Creed, he is 100% in agreement with the sede groups, the SSPX, and Vatican II on this matter.

Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”


Athanasian Creed (4th Century)
1. Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the Catholic faith;
2. Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
3. And the Catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
4. Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.
5. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit.
6. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal.
7. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit.
8. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
9. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
10. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
11. And yet they are not three eternals but one eternal.
12. As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensible, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
13. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty.
14. And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
15. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
16. And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
17. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
18. And yet they are not three Lords but one Lord.
19. For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord;
20. So are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say; There are three Gods or three Lords.
21. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
22. The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
23. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
24. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
25. And in this Trinity none is afore or after another; none is greater or less than another.
26. But the whole three persons are coeternal, and coequal.
27. So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
28. He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
29. Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
30. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
31. God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of substance of His mother, born in the world.
32. Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
33. Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
34. Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
35. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of that manhood into God.
36. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
37. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
38. Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
39. He ascended into heaven, He sits on the right hand of the Father, God, Almighty;
40. From thence He shall come to judge the quick and the dead.
41. At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
42. and shall give account of their own works.
43. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
44. This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully he cannot be saved.

Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 08, 2017, 09:26:32 AM
I do not see any contradiction between

A: Canon Law 1239.2
Catechumeni qui nulla sua culpa sine baptismo moriantur, baptizatis accensendi sunt.
"Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."

and

B: The Athanasian Creed
http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Athanasian_Creed.html


Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 08, 2017, 09:37:06 AM
It certainly is possible when modernists opt for a "deeper understanding" of Church teaching. This has been clearly obvious over the last few centuries or so.

Where do you think the Novus Ordo sect came from?
The post-Vatican2 orientation (novus ordo) openly rejects the pre-Vatican2 Church.  This is a simple observation, it is the rebellious spirit of Vatican2.  New theology, new church.  The novus ordo practice is nothing less than a public apostasy from the Catholic Faith.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 08, 2017, 10:46:34 AM
Quote
I do not see any contradiction between

A: Canon Law 1239.2
Catechumeni qui nulla sua culpa sine baptismo moriantur, baptizatis accensendi sunt.
"Catechumens who, through no fault of their own, die without Baptism, are to be treated as baptized."

and

B: The Athanasian Creed
http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Athanasian_Creed.html (http://traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Prayer/Athanasian_Creed.html)
The writer must see a contradiction between what he believes and the Athansian Creed because this thread is not about baptism of desire of the catechumen, it is about the denial of the Athanasian Creed. It is obvious that the writer believes like the sede groups and the SSPX teach, that people can be saved without belief in the Holy Trinity and Christ,, without a desire to be baptized, without desire to be a Catholic.


 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/why-i-do-not-push-the-sede-position/36/?action=reporttm;msg=577974)
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 08, 2017, 11:21:57 AM
The canon above is what you want to bring forward for BOD. The canon from Braga is the one I want to bring forward in contradiction of yours. Yours says catechumens are to be treated as Baptized, mine says they are not. Which one is correct? Also, who decides whether the catechumen's death was "through no fault of their own"?
From my perspective, this discussion is not about Baptism of Desire, but rather it is about the erroneous notion that the Church would promulgate teachings contrary to Herself.  Specifically, I believe it is incorrect to interpret one Truth in a way that makes it contradict another.  The proper orientation would be to show how each does not oppose the other.  In this specific instance, the manner in which the Church treats a Catechumen who dies before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism, Canon Law would prevail as the Church's teaching on the topic.  God, and God alone, would know the circuмstances of the Catechumen's demise.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 08, 2017, 11:30:34 AM
The writer must see a contradiction between what he believes and the Athansian Creed because this thread is not about baptism of desire of the catechumen, it is about the denial of the Athanasian Creed. It is obvious that the writer believes like the sede groups and the SSPX teach, that people can be saved without belief in the Holy Trinity and Christ,, without a desire to be baptized, without desire to be a Catholic.


 (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/why-i-do-not-push-the-sede-position/36/?action=reporttm;msg=577974)
Now this is odd, you change the topic to some obvious yet unknown contradiction between what I believe and the Athansian Creed?  That nears absurd, but you continue that I believe "like sede groups and the SSPX" that "people can be saved without belief in the Holy Trinity and Christ" and "without a desire to be baptized, without desire to be a Catholic."  I have never in my life heard such an outrageous slander.  You should reflect on yourself and get a grip on reality.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 08, 2017, 11:32:25 AM
Quote
From my perspective, this discussion is not about Baptism of Desire, but rather it is about the erroneous notion that the Church would promulgate teachings contrary to Herself.  Specifically, I believe it is incorrect to interpret one Truth in a way that makes it contradict another.  The proper orientation would be to show how each does not oppose the other.  In this specific instance, the manner in which the Church treats a Catechumen who dies before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism, Canon Law would prevail as the Church's teaching on the topic.  God, and God alone, would know the circuмstances of the Catechumen's demise.
This person keeps harping on BOD of the catechumen, it is obvious now that he is attempting to side track this thread which is not about BOD of the catechumen, but aqbout the denial of the dogmatic Athanasian Creed.

I ask everyone not to respond to him on this thread. Please take this discussion to this thread: Council of Ephesus Quote https://www.cathinfo.com/baptism-of-desire-and-feeneyism/council-of-ephesus-quote/msg578004/?topicseen#msg578004
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 08, 2017, 11:51:14 AM
This person keeps harping on BOD of the catechumen, it is obvious now that he is attempting to side track this thread which is not about BOD of the catechumen, but aqbout the denial of the dogmatic Athanasian Creed.
I was answering An_even_Seven's question.  You, Last_Tradhican, took my reply out of it's context.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 08, 2017, 04:58:17 PM
.
Understood.  Yes, liars are not consistent, this is why they must promote ambiguity, whether knowingly or unknowingly.

You, and other Sedes continually call those who disagree with you names such as liars and heretics. Our Lord was treated the same way by the Pharisees who wrongly believed that ONLY THEY had the truth. They assumed bad will of anyone who disagreed with them. 

I may start a thread and begin posting the Pharisee Sedevacantist quotes of the day, though it may be difficult to keep up with all of the name-calling and accusations given by the Pharisee Sedes. 
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 08, 2017, 05:14:53 PM
"Piranha are fish".

"U r meen!  :'("
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 09:07:18 AM
In your opinion, who else besides Flat-earth believing, BOD loving, R&R's have the Truth?

I do not limit "Truth" to any of the groups you list above. It's the nutty Pharisedes who limit "Truth" to only a so-called privileged few.

Pharisedes are the Jєωs of the Trad movement, as I've said before. They believe they are God's chosen, and that they are superior to all others, and they infiltrate in order to take over. And they have contempt for anyone who challenges them.

Sedevacantism is an illness.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 09:24:18 AM
If by privileged few you mean those who are Catholic, then yes, we limit Catholics to those who accept the Truth. This sort of argumentation is quite foolish. Anyone who considers themselves followers of Christ should believe that The Truth is relegated to His Teachings and should stringently preach and follow them. Those who do not, such as yourself, reveal themselves as not followers of Christ, and are hypocrites, akin to the Pharisees.

The above post only serves to re-affirm what I contend - Pharisedes are the Jєωs of the Trad movement. They have only contempt for those who do not accept their opinions (which they foolishly believe to be "Truth.")

The Pharisedes will be the downfall of the Trad movement, and the Resistance. It's only a matter of time.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 09, 2017, 09:28:52 AM
The Pharisedes will be the downfall of the Trad movement, and the Resistance. It's only a matter of time.
You're welcome?
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 09, 2017, 09:38:42 AM
This.
Being sound and conclusive is for squares; I like my faith squishy and bendy, like my brain.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 09:44:44 AM
.
Here is the best quote, its from the first century, it comes from the dogmatic Gospel of St. John.  Baptism of Blood and Baptism of desire are dead, its a lie!!
.
John 1:12-13  [12] But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. [13] Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
.
The blood refers to different meanings, see the Haydock interpretation.  Desires of the flesh meaning bloodline also not speaking of desire as you interpret the verse.  

We all believe the SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM is necessary, but in God's Mercy, He has provided those of FAITH AND DIVINE GRACE A MEANS OF SALVATION although not the Sacrament for there is only One Sacrament of Baptism but also the Mercy of God of which you deny.  
Ver. 10. He was in the world, &c. Many of the ancient interpreters understand this verse of Christ as God, who was in the world from its first creation, producing and governing all things: but the blind sinful world did not know and worship him. Others apply these words to the Son of God made man; whom even God's own chosen people, the Jєωs, at his coming, refused to receive and believe in him. (Witham)
Ver. 11. His own. This regards principally the Jєωs. Jesus came to them as into his own family, but they did not receive him. It may likewise be extended to the Gentiles, who had groaned so long a time in darkness, and only seemed to wait for the rising sun of justice to run to its light. They likewise did not receive him. These words, though apparently general, must be understood with restriction; as there were some, though comparatively few, of both Jєωs and Gentiles, who embraced the faith. (Calmet)

Ver. 12. He gave to them power to be made the adoptive sons of God, and heirs of the kingdom of heaven. They are made the children of God by believing and by a new spiritual birth in the sacrament of baptism, not of blood; (literally, not of bloods) not by the will, and desires of the flesh, not by the will of men, nor by human generation, as children are first born of their natural parents, but of God, by faith and divine grace. (Witham)
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 11:22:18 AM


Sedevacantism is an illness.
Meg you are so mistaken Catholics who insist on a POPE who continues to break DIVINE LAW, day after day as in the breaking of the FIRST COMMANDMENT is not only just an illness but a fatal illness. 
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: JohnAnthonyMarie on November 09, 2017, 12:33:16 PM
... all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form.
I would be interested in a reference that demonstrates your allegation.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 12:39:32 PM
Meg you are so mistaken Catholics who insist on a POPE who continues to break DIVINE LAW, day after day as in the breaking of the FIRST COMMANDMENT is not only just an illness but a fatal illness.

We know that Pope Francis breaks the commandments of God. But....Pope Francis is not God. That's something that you Pharisedes don't understand. Pope Francis is a man, and therefore subject to sin.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 12:53:55 PM
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, Gods representative, he is guided by the Holy Ghost.  

Catholics who do not believe that must think that God failed.  

Vicar of Christ

(Latin Vicarius Christi).
A title of the pope (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm) implying his supreme and universal primacy (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12423a.htm), both of honour (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07462a.htm) and of jurisdiction (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm), over the Church of Christ. (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm) It is founded on the words of the Divine Shepherd (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) to St. Peter (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm): "Feed my lambs. . . . Feed my sheep" (John 21:16-17 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/joh021.htm#vrs16)), by which He constituted the Prince of the Apostles (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm) guardian of His entire flock in His own place, thus making him His Vicar (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/15401a.htm) and fulfilling the promise made in Matthew 16:18-19 (http://www.newadvent.org/bible/mat016.htm#vrs18).
In the course of the ages other vicarial designations have been used for the pope (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm), as Vicar of St. Peter (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm) and even Vicar of the Apostolic See (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01640c.htm) (Pope Gelasius (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06406a.htm), I, Ep. vi), but the title Vicar of Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) is more expressive of his supreme headship of the Church (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/03744a.htm)on earth, which he bears in virtue of the commission of Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) and with vicarial power derived from Him. Thus, Innocent III (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08013a.htm)appeals for his power to remove bishops (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02581b.htm) to the fact that he is Vicar of Christ (cap. "Inter corporalia", 2, "De trans. ep."). He also declares that Christ (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08374c.htm) has given such power only to His Vicar Peter (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm) and his successors (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01641a.htm) (cap. "Quanto", 3, ibid.), and states that it is the Roman Pontiff (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm) who is "the successor of Peter (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11744a.htm) and the Vicar of Jesus Christ" (cap. "Licet", 4, ibid.). The title Vicar of God (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/06608a.htm) used for the pope (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12260a.htm) by Nicholas III (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11056a.htm) (c. "Fundamenta ejus", 17, "De elect.", in 6) is employed as an equivalent for Vicar of Christ.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 01:05:49 PM
The Pope is the Vicar of Christ, Gods representative, he is guided by the Holy Ghost.  

Catholics who do not believe that must think that God failed.  


There is no guarantee that the Holy Ghost will guide the Pope. If a Pope is a true follower of Christ and His Church, has an intent to pass on the Deposit of Faith, loves God, and is a man of prayer, then yes, there's every reason to believe that the Holy Ghost will guide the Pope. If a Pope declares infallibility in proclaiming or clarifying a Church teaching, then we know that the Holy Ghost is with him. However, Pope Francis has not invoked infallibility in any of his heretical teachings. 

However, God has allowed this Crisis to occur. It is assumed that He has allowed it by His permissive will, and not by his direct will. God will not mess with our free will. He will allow us to mess things up, if only that we learn from the lesson, or that we must reform ourselves due to sin. The Crisis may be have been allowed by God due to the sins of mankind. God will ultimately prevail, Our Lady has said as much. But causing division and hatred among trads, as the Pharisedes are prone to do, will not further the end of the Crisis. 
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 01:24:51 PM
There is no guarantee that the Holy Ghost will guide the Pope. If a Pope is a true follower of Christ and His Church, has an intent to pass on the Deposit of Faith, loves God, and is a man of prayer, then yes, there's every reason to believe that the Holy Ghost will guide the Pope. If a Pope declares infallibility in proclaiming or clarifying a Church teaching, then we know that the Holy Ghost is with him. However, Pope Francis has not invoked infallibility in any of his heretical teachings.

However, God has allowed this Crisis to occur. It is assumed that He has allowed it by His permissive will, and not by his direct will. God will not mess with our free will. He will allow us to mess things up, if only that we learn from the lesson, or that we must reform ourselves due to sin. The Crisis may be have been allowed by God due to the sins of mankind. God will ultimately prevail, Our Lady has said as much. But causing division and hatred among trads, as the Pharisedes are prone to do, will not further the end of the Crisis.
Think about what the 3rd Glorious Mystery of the rosary really meant.
Also read this:
Divinum Illud Munus
On the Holy Spirit Divinum
Pope Leo XIII - May 9, 1897
To Our Venerable Brethren, The Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, Bishops, and other Local Ordinaries having Peace and Communion with the Holy See.
Venerable Brethren, Health and the Apostolic Benediction.
1. That divine office which Jesus Christ received from His Father for the welfare of mankind, and most perfectly fulfilled, had for its final object to put men in possession of the eternal life of glory, and proximately during the course of ages to secure to them the life of divine grace, which is destined eventually to blossom into the life of heaven. Wherefore, our Saviour never ceases to invite, with infinite affection, all men, of every race and tongue, into the bosom of His Church: “Come ye all to Me,” “I am the Life,” “I am the Good Shepherd.” Nevertheless, according to His inscrutable counsels, He did not will to entirely complete and finish this office Himself on earth, but as He had received it from the Father, so He transmitted it for its completion to the Holy Ghost. It is consoling to recall those assurances which Christ gave to the body of His disciples a little before He left the earth: “It is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send Him to you” (1 John xvi., 7). In these words He gave as the chief reason of His departure and His return to the Father, the advantage which would most certainly accrue to His followers from the coming of the Holy Ghost, and, at the same time, He made it clear that the Holy Ghost is equally sent by-and therefore proceeds from – Himself and the Father; that He would complete, in His office of Intercessor, Consoler, and Teacher, the work which Christ Himself had begun in His mortal life. For, in the redemption of the world, the completion of the work was by Divine Providence reserved to the manifold power of that Spirit, who, in the creation, “adorned the heavens” (Job xxvi., 13), and “filled the whole world” (Wisdom i., 7).
2. Now We have earnestly striven, by the help of His grace, to follow the example of Christ, Our Saviour, the Prince of Pastors, and the Bishop of our Souls, by diligently carrying on His office, entrusted by Him to the Apostles and chiefly to Peter, “whose dignity faileth not, even in his unworthy successor” (St. Leo the Great, Sermon ii., On the Anniversary of his Election). In pursuance of this object We have endeavoured to direct all that We have attempted and persistently carried out during a long pontificate towards two chief ends: in the first place, towards the restoration, both in rulers and peoples, of the principles of the Christian life in civil and domestic society, since there is no true life for men except from Christ; and, secondly, to promote the reunion of those who have fallen away from the Catholic Church either by heresy or by schism, since it is most undoubtedly the will of Christ that all should be united in one flock under one Shepherd. But now that We are looking forward to the approach of the closing days of Our life, Our soul is deeply moved to dedicate to the Holy Ghost, who is the life-giving Love, all the work We have done during Our pontificate, that He may bring it to maturity and fruitfulness. In order the better and more fully to carry out this Our intention, We have resolved to address you at the approaching sacred season of Pentecost concerning the indwelling and miraculous power of the Holy Ghost; and the extent and efficiency of His action, both in the whole body of the Church and in the individual souls of its members, through the glorious abundance of His divine graces. We earnestly desire that, as a result, faith may be aroused in your minds concerning the mystery of the adorable Trinity, and especially that piety may increase and be inflamed towards the Holy Ghost, to whom especially all of us owe the grace of following the paths of truth and virtue; for, as St. Basil said, “Who denieth that the dispensations concerning man, which have been made by the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ, according to the goodness of God, have been fulfilled through the grace of the Spirit?” (Of the Holy Ghost, c. xvi., v. 39).
3. Before We enter upon this subject, it will be both desirable and useful to say a few words about the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity. This dogma is called by the doctors of the Church “the substance of the New Testament,” that is to say, the greatest of all mysteries, since it is the fountain and origin of them all. In order to know and contemplate this mystery, the angels were created in Heaven and men upon earth. In order to teach more fully this mystery, which was but foreshadowed in the Old Testament, God Himself came down from the angels unto men: “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him” (John i., 18). Whosoever then writes or speaks of the Trinity must keep before His eyes the prudent warning of the Angelic Doctor: “When we speak of the Trinity, we must do so with caution and modesty, for, as St. Augustine saith, nowhere else are more dangerous errors made, or is research more difficult, or discovery more fruitful” (Summ. Th. la., q. xxxi. De Trin. 1 1., c. 3). The danger that arises is lest the Divine Persons be confounded one with the other in faith or worship, or lest the one Nature in them be separated: for “This is the Catholic Faith, that we should adore one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity.” Therefore Our predecessor Innocent XII, absolutely refused the petition of those who desired a special festival in honour of God the Father. For, although the separate mysteries connected with the Incarnate Word are celebrated on certain fixed days, yet there is no special feast on which the Word is honoured according to His Divine Nature alone. And even the Feast of Pentecost was instituted in the earliest times, not simply to honour the Holy Ghost in Himself, but to commemorate His coming, or His external mission. And all this has been wisely ordained, lest from distinguishing the Persons men should be led to distinguish the Divine Essence. Moreover the Church, in order to preserve in her children the purity of faith, instituted the Feast of the Most Holy Trinity, which John XXII. afterwards extended to the Universal Church. He also permitted altars and churches to be dedicated to the Blessed Trinity, and, with the divine approval, sanctioned the Order for the Ransom of Captives, which is specially devoted to the Blessed Trinity and bears Its name. Many facts confirm its truths. The worship paid to the saints and angels, to the Mother of God, and to Christ Himself, finally redounds to the honour of the Blessed Trinity. In prayers addressed to one Per son, there is also mention of the others; in the litanies after the individual Persons have been separately invoked, a common invocation of all is added: all psalms and hymns conclude with the doxology to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; blessings, sacred rites, and sacraments are either accompanied or concluded by the invocation of the Blessed Trinity. This was already foreshadowed by the Apostle in those words: “For of Him, and by Him, and in Him, are all things: to Him be glory for ever” (Rom. xi., 36), thereby signifying both the Trinity of Persons and the Unity of Nature: for as this is one and the same in each of the Persons, so to each is equally owing supreme glory, as to one and the same God. St. Augustine commenting upon this testimony writes: “The words of the Apostle, of Him, and by Him, and in Him are not to be taken indiscriminately; of Him refers to the Father, by Him to the Son, in Him to the Holy Ghost” (De Trin. 1. vi., c. 10; 1. i., c. 6). The Church is accustomed most fittingly to attribute to the Father those works of the Divinity in which power excels, to the Son those in which wisdom excels, and those in which love excels to the Holy Ghost. Not that all perfections and external operations are not common to the Divine Persons; for “the operations of the Trinity are indivisible, even as the essence of the Trinity is indivisible” (St. Aug., De Trin., 1. 1, cc. 4-5); because as the three Divine Persons “are inseparable, so do they act inseparably” (St. Aug., ib.). But by a certain comparison, and a kind of affinity between the operations and the properties of the Persons, these operations are attributed or, as it is said, “appropriated” to One Person rather than to the others. “Just as we make use of the traces of similarity or likeness which we find in creatures for the manifestation of the Divine Persons, so do we use Their essential attributes; and this manifestation of the Persons by Their essential attributes is called appropriation” (St. Th. la., q. 39, xxxix., a. 7). In this manner the Father, who is “the principle of the whole God-head” (St. Aug. De Trin. 1 iv., c. 20) is also the efficient cause of all things, of the Incarnation of the Word, and the sanctification of souls; “of Him are all things”: of Him, referring to the Father. But the Son, the Word, the Image of God is also the exemplar cause, whence all creatures borrow their form and beauty, their order and harmony. He is for us the Way, the Truth, and the Life; the Reconciler of man with God. “By Him are all things”: by Him, referring to the Son. The Holy Ghost is the ultimate cause of all things, since, as the will and all other things finally rest in their end, so He, who is the Divine Goodness and the Mutual Love of the Father and Son, completes and perfects, by His strong yet gentle power, the secret work of man’s eternal salvation. “In Him are all things”: in Him, referring to the Holy Ghost.
4. Having thus paid the due tribute of faith and worship owing to the Blessed Trinity, and which ought to be more and more inculcated upon the Christian people, we now turn to the exposition of the power of the Holy Ghost. And, first of all, we must look to Christ, the Founder of the Church and the Redeemer of our race. Among the external operations of God, the highest of all is the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word, in which the splendour of the divine perfections shines forth so brightly that nothing more sublime can even be imagined, nothing else could have been more salutary to the human race. Now this work, although belonging to the whole Trinity, is still appropriated especially to the Holy Ghost, so that the Gospels thus speak of the Blessed Virgin: “She was found with child of the Holy Ghost,” and “that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost” (Matt. i., 18, 20). And this is rightly attributed to Him who is the love of the Father and the Son, since this “great mystery of piety” (1 Tim. iii., 16) proceeds from the infinite love of God towards man, as St. John tells us: “God so loved the world as to give His only begotten Son” John iii., 16). Moreover, human nature was thereby elevated to a personal union with the Word; and this dignity is given, not on account of any merits, but entirely and absolutely through grace, and therefore, as it were, through the special gift of the Holy Ghost. On this point St. Augustine writes: “This manner in which Christ was born of the Holy Ghost, indicates to us the grace of God, by which humanity, with no antecedent merits, at the first moment of its existence, was united with the Word of God, by so intimate a personal union, that He, who was the Son of Man, was also the Son of God, and He who was the Son of God was also the Son of Man” (Enchir., c. xl. St. Th., 3a., q. xxxii., a. 1). By the operation of the Holy Spirit, not only was the conception of Christ accomplished, but also the sanctification of His soul, which, in Holy Scripture, is called His “anointing” (Acts x., 38). Wherefore all His actions were “performed in the Holy Ghost” (St. Basil de Sp. S., c. xvi.), and especially the sacrifice of Himself: “Christ, through the Holy Ghost, offered Himself without spot to God” (Heb. ix., 14). Considering this, no one can be surprised that all the gifts of the Holy Ghost inundated the soul of Christ. In Him resided the absolute fullness of grace, in the greatest and most efficacious manner possible; in Him were all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, graces gratis datae, virtues, and all other gifts foretold in the prophecies of Isaias (Is. iv., I; xi., 23), and also signified in that miraculous dove which appeared at the Jordan, when Christ, by His baptism, consecrated its waters for a new sacrament. On this the words of St. Augustine may appropriately be quoted: “It would be absurd to say that Christ received the Holy Ghost when He was already thirty years of age, for He came to His baptism without sin, and therefore not without the Holy Ghost. At this time, then (that is, at His baptism), He was pleased to prefigure His Church, in which those especially who are baptized receive the Holy Ghost” (De. Trin. 1., xv., c. 26). Therefore, by the conspicuous apparition of the Holy Ghost over Christ and by His invisible power in His soul, the twofold mission of the Spirit is foreshadowed, namely, His outward and visible mission in the Church, and His secret indwelling in the souls of the just.
5. The Church which, already conceived, came forth from the side of the second Adam in His sleep on the Cross, first showed herself before the eyes of men on the great day of Pentecost. On that day the Holy Ghost began to manifest His gifts in the mystic body of Christ, by that miraculous outpouring already foreseen by the prophet Joel (ii., 28-29), for the Paraclete “sat upon the apostles as though new spiritual crowns were placed upon their heads in tongues of fire” (S. Cyril Hier. Catech. 17). Then the apostles “descended from the mountain,” as St. John Chrysostom writes, “not bearing in their hands tables of stone like Moses, but carrying the Spirit in their mind, and pouring forth the treasure and the fountain of doctrines and graces” (In Matt. Hom. 1., 2 Cor. iii., 3). Thus was fully accomplished that last promise of Christ to His apostles of sending the Holy Ghost, who was to complete and, as it were, to seal the deposit of doctrine committed to them under His inspiration. “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now; but when He, the Spirit of Truth, shall come, He will teach you all truth” (John xvi., 1213). For He who is the Spirit of Truth, inasmuch as He proceedeth both from the Father, who is the eternally True, and from the Son, who is the substantial Truth, receiveth from each both His essence and the fullness of all truth. This truth He communicates to His Church, guarding her by His all powerful help from ever falling into error, and aiding her to foster daily more and more the germs of divine doctrine and to make them fruitful for the welfare of the peoples. And since the welfare of the peoples, for which the Church was established, absolutely requires that this office should be continued for all time, the Holy Ghost perpetually supplies life and strength to preserve and increase the Church. “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that He may abide with you for ever, the Spirit of Truth” John xiv., 16, 17).
6. By Him the bishops are constituted, and by their ministry are multiplied not only the children, but also the fathers – that is to say, the priests – to rule and feed the Church by that Blood wherewith Christ has redeemed Her. “The Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops to rule the Church of God, which He hath purchased with His own Blood” (Acts xx., 28). And both bishops and priests, by the miraculous gift of the Spirit, have the power of absolving sins, according to those words of Christ to the Apostles: “Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them, and whose you shall retain they are retained” John xx., 22, 23). That the Church is a divine institution is most clearly proved by the splendour and glory of those gifts and graces with which she is adorned, and whose author and giver is the Holy Ghost. Let it suffice to state that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, so is the Holy Ghost her soul. “What the soul is in our body, that is the Holy Ghost in Christ’s body, the Church” (St. Aug., Serm. 187, de Temp.). This being so, no further and fuller “manifestation and revelation of the Divine Spirit” may be imagined or expected; for that which now takes place in the Church is the most perfect possible, and will last until that day when the Church herself, having passed through her militant career, shall be taken up into the joy of the saints triumphing in heaven.
7. The manner and extent of the action of the Holy Ghost in individual souls is no less wonderful, although somewhat more difficult to understand, inasmuch as it is entirely invisible. This outpouring of the Spirit is so abundant, that Christ Himself, from whose gift it proceeds, compares it to an overflowing river, according to those words of St. John: “He that believeth in Me, as the Scripture saith, out of his midst shall flow rivers of living water”; to which testimony the Evangelist adds the explanation: “Now this He said of the Spirit which they should receive who believed in Him” John vii., 38, 39). It is indeed true that in those of the just who lived before Christ, the Holy Ghost resided by grace, as we read in the Scriptures concerning the prophets, Zachary, John the Baptist, Simeon, and Anna; so that on Pentecost the Holy Ghost did not communicate Himself in such a way “as then for the first time to begin to dwell in the saints, but by pouring Himself forth more abundantly; crowning, not beginning His gifts; not commencing a new work, but giving more abundantly” (St. Leo the Great, Hom. iii., de Pentec.). But if they also were numbered among the children of God, they were in a state like that of servants, for “as long as the heir is a child he differeth nothing from a servant, but is under tutors and governors” (Gal. iv., 1, 2). Moreover, not only was their justice derived from the merits of Christ who was to come, but the communication of the Holy Ghost after Christ was much more abundant, just as the price surpasses in value the earnest and the reality excels the image. Wherefore St. John declares: “As yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified” John vii., 39). So soon, therefore, as Christ, “ascending on high,” entered into possession of the glory of His Kingdom which He had won with so much la our, He munificently opened out the treasures of the Holy Ghost: “He gave gifts to men” (Eph. iv., 8). For “that giving or sending forth of the Holy Ghost after Christ’s glorification was to be such as had never been before; not that there had been none before, but it had not been of the same kind” (St. Aug., De Trin., 1. iv. c. 20).
8. Human nature is by necessity the servant of God: “The creature is a servant; we are the servants of God by nature” (St. Cyr. Alex., Thesaur. 1. v., c. 5). On account, however, of original sin, our whole nature had fallen into such guilt and dishonour that we had become enemies to God. “We were by nature the children of wrath” (Eph. ii., 3). There was no power which could raise us and deliver us from this ruin and eternal destruction. But God, the Creator of mankind and infinitely merciful, did this through His only begotten Son, by whose benefit it was brought about that man was restored so that rank and dignity whence he had fallen, and was adorned with still more abundant graces. No one can express the greatness of this work of divine grace in the souls of men. Wherefore, both in Holy Scripture and in the writings of the fathers, men are styled regenerated, new creatures, partakers of the Divine Nature, children of God, god-like, and similar epithets. Now these great blessings are justly attributed as especially belonging to the Holy Ghost. He is “the Spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba, Father.” He fills our hearts with the sweetness of paternal love: “The Spirit Himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God” (Rom. viii., 15-16). This truth accords with the similitude observed by the Angelic Doctor between both operations of the Holy Ghost; for through Him “Christ was conceived in holiness to be by nature the Son of God,” and “others are sanctified to be the sons of God by adoption” (St. Th. 3a, q. xx ii., a. 1). This spiritual generation proceeds from love in a much more noble manner than the natural: namely, from the uncreated Love.
9. The beginnings of this regeneration and renovation of man are by Baptism. In this sacrament, when the unclean spirit has been expelled from the soul, the Holy Ghost enters in and makes it like to Himself. “That which is born of the Spirit, is spirit” john iii., 6). The same Spirit gives Himself more abundantly in Confirmation, strengthening and confirming Christian life; from which proceeded the victory of the martyrs and the triumph of the virgins over temptations and corruptions. We have said that the Holy Ghost gives Himself: “the charity of God is poured out into our hearts by the Holy Ghost who is given to us” (Rom. v., 5). For He not only brings to us His divine gifts, but is the Author of them and is Himself the supreme Gift, who, proceeding from the mutual love of the Father and the Son, is justly believed to be and is called “Gift of God most High.” To show the nature and efficacy of this gift it is well to recall the explanation given by the doctors of the Church of the words of Holy Scripture. They say that God is present and exists in all things, “by His power, in so far as all things are subject to His power; by His presence, inasmuch as all things are naked and open to His eyes; by His essence, inasmuch as he is present to all as the cause of their being.” (St. Th. Ia, q. viii., a. 3). But God is in man, not only as in inanimate things, but because he is more fully known and loved by him, since even by nature we spontaneously love, desire, and seek after the good. Moreover, God by grace resides in the just soul as in a temple, in a most intimate and peculiar manner. From this proceeds that union of affection by which the soul adheres most closely to God, more so than the friend is united to his most loving and beloved friend, and enjoys God in all fullness and sweetness. Now this wonderful union, which is properly called “indwelling,” differing only in degree or state from that with which God beatifies the saints in heaven, although it is most certainly produced by the presence of the whole Blessed Trinity – “We will come to Him and make our abode with Him,” John xiv. 23.) – nevertheless is attributed in a peculiar manner to the Holy Ghost. For, whilst traces of divine power and wisdom appear even in the wicked man, charity, which, as it were, is the special mark of the Holy Ghost, is shared in only by the just. In harmony with this, the same Spirit is called Holy, for He, the first and supreme Love, moves souls and leads them to sanctity, which ultimately consists in the love of God. Wherefore the apostle when calling us to the temple of God, does not expressly mention the Father or the Son, or the Holy Ghost: “Know ye not that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God?” (1 Cor. vi. 19). The fullness of divine gifts is in many ways a consequence of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the souls of the just. For, as St. Thomas teaches, “when the Holy Ghost proceedeth as love, He proceedeth in the character of the first gift; whence Augustine saith that, through the gift which is the Holy Ghost, many other special gifts are distributed among the members of Christ.” (Summ. Th., la. q. xxxviii., a. 2. St. Aug. De Trin., xv., c. 19). Among these gifts are those secret warnings and invitations, which from time to time are excited in our minds and hearts by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Without these there is no beginning of a good life, no progress, no arriving at eternal salvation. And since these words and admonitions are uttered in the soul in an exceedingly secret manner, they are sometimes aptly compared in Holy Writ to the breathing of a coming breeze, and the Angelic Doctor likens them to the movements of the heart which are wholly hidden in the living body. “Thy heart has a certain hidden power, and therefore the Holy Ghost, who invisibly vivifies and unites the Church, is compared to the heart.”(Summ. Th. 3a, q. vii., a. 1, ad 3). More than this, the just man, that is to say he who lives the life of divine grace, and acts by the fitting virtues as by means of faculties, has need of those seven gifts which are properly attributed to the Holy Ghost. By means of them the soul is furnished and strengthened so as to obey more easily and promptly His voice and impulse. Wherefore these gifts are of such efficacy that they lead the just man to the highest degree of sanctity; and of such excellence that they continue to exist even in heaven, though in a more perfect way. By means of these gifts the soul is excited and encouraged to seek after and attain the evangelical beatitudes, which, like the flowers that come forth in the spring time, are the signs and harbingers of eternal beatitude. Lastly there are those blessed fruits, enumerated by the Apostle (Gal. v., 22), which the Spirit, even in this mortal life, produces and shows forth in the just; fruits filled with all sweetness and joy, inasmuch as they proceed from the Spirit, “who is in the Trinity the sweetness of both Father and Son, filling all creatures with infinite fullness and profusion.” (St. Aug. De Trin. 1. vi., c. 9). The Divine Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Word in the eternal light of sanctity, Himself both Love and Gift, after having manifested Himself through the veils of figures in the Old Testament, poured forth all his fullness upon Christ and upon His mystic Body, the Church; and called back by his presence and grace men who were going away in wickedness and corruption with such salutary effect that, being no longer of the earth earthy, they relished and desired quite other things, becoming of heaven heavenly.
10. These sublime truths, which so clearly show forth the infinite goodness of the Holy Ghost towards us, certainly demand that we should direct towards Him the highest homage of our love and devotion. Christians may do this most effectually if they will daily strive to know Him, to love Him, and to implore Him more earnestly; for which reason may this Our exhortation, flowing spontaneously from a paternal heart, reach their ears. Perchance there are still to be found among them, even nowadays, some, who if asked, as were those of old by St. Paul the Apostle, whether they have received the Holy Ghost, might answer in like manner: “We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost” (Acts xix., 2). At least there are certainly many who are very deficient in their religious practices, but their faith is involved in much darkness. Wherefore all preachers and those having care of souls should remember that it is their duty to instruct their people more diligently and more fully about the Holy Ghost – avoiding, however, difficult and subtle controversies, and eschewing the dangerous folly of those who rashly endeavour to pry into divine mysteries. What should be chiefly dwelt upon and clearly explained is the multitude and greatness of the benefits which have been bestowed, and are constantly bestowed, upon us by this Divine Giver, so that errors and ignorance concerning matters of such moment may be entirely dispelled, as unworthy of “the children of light.” We urge this, not only because it affects a mystery by which we are directly guided to eternal life, and which must therefore be firmly believed; but also because the more clearly and fully the good is known the more earnestly it is loved. Now we owe to the Holy Ghost, as we mentioned in the second place, love, because He is God: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength” (Deut. vi., 5). He is also to be loved because He is the substantial, eternal, primal Love, and nothing is more lovable than love. And this all the more because He has overwhelmed us with the greatest benefits, which both testify to the benevolence of the Giver and claim the gratitude of the receiver. This love has a twofold and most conspicuous utility. In the first place it will excite us to acquire daily a clearer knowledge about the Holy Ghost; for, as the Angelic Doctor says, “the lover is not content with the superficial knowledge of the beloved, but striveth to inquire intimately into all that appertains to the beloved, and thus to penetrate into the interior; as is said of the Holy Ghost, Who is the Love of God, that He searcheth even the profound things of God” (1 Cor. ii., 10; Summ. Theol., la. 2ae., q. 28, a. 2). In the second place it will obtain for us a still more abundant supply of heavenly gifts; for whilst a narrow heart contracteth the hand of the giver, a grateful and mindful heart causeth it to expand. Yet we must strive that this love should be of such a nature as not to consist merely in dry speculations or external observances, but rather to run forward towards action, and especially to fly from sin, which is in a more special manner offensive to the Holy Spirit. For whatever we are, that we are by the divine goodness; and this goodness is specially attributed to the Holy Ghost. The sinner offends this his Benefactor, abusing His gifts; and taking advantage of His goodness becomes more hardened in sin day by day. Again, since He is the Spirit of Truth, whosoever faileth by weakness or ignorance may perhaps have some excuse before Almighty God; but he who resists the truth through malice and turns away from it, sins most grievously against the Holy Ghost. In our days this sin has become so frequent that those dark times seem to have come which were foretold by St. Paul, in which men, blinded by the just judgment of God, should take falsehood for truth, and should believe in “the prince of this world,” who is a liar and the father thereof, as a teacher of truth: “God shall send them the operation of error, to believe Iying (2 Thess. ii., 10). In the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error and the doctrines of devils” (1 Tim. iv., 1). But since the Holy Ghost, as We have said, dwells in us as in His temple, We must repeat the warning of the Apostle: “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed” (Eph. iv., 30). Nor is it enough to fly from sin; every Christian ought to shine with the splendour of virtue so as to be pleasing to so great and so beneficent a guest; and first of all with chastity and holiness, for chaste and holy things befit the temple. Hence the words of the Apostle: “Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are” (1 Cor. iii., 16-17): a terrible, in deed, but a just warning.
11. Lastly, we ought to pray to and invoke the Holy Spirit, for each one of us greatly needs His protection and His help. The more a man is deficient in wisdom, weak in strength, borne down with trouble, prone to sin, so ought he the more to fly to Him who is the never-ceasing fount of light, strength, consolation, and holiness. And chiefly that first requisite of man, the forgiveness of sins, must be sought for from Him: “It is the special character of the Holy Ghost that He is the Gift of the Father and the Son. Now the remission of all sins is given by the Holy Ghost as by the Gift of God” (Summ. Th. 3a, q. iii., a. 8, ad 3m). Concerning this Spirit the words of the Liturgy are very explicit: “For He is the remission of all sins” (Roman Missal, Tuesday after Pentecost). How He should be invoked is clearly taught by the Church, who addresses Him in humble supplication, calling upon Him by the sweetest of names: “Come, Father of the poor! Come, Giver of gifts! Come, Light of our hearts! O. best of Consolers, sweet Guest of the soul, our refreshment!” (Hymn, Veni Sancte Spiritus). She earnestly implores Him to wash, heal, water our minds and hearts, and to give to us who trust in Him “the merit of virtue, the acquirement of salvation, and joy everlasting.” Nor can it be in any way doubted that He will listen to such prayer, since we read the words written by His own inspiration: “The Spirit Himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings” (Rom. viii., 26). Lastly, we ought confidently and continually to beg of Him to illuminate us daily more and more with His light and inflame us with His charity: for, thus inspired with faith and love, we may press onward earnestly towards our eternal reward, since He “is the pledge of our inheritance” (Eph. i. 14).
12. Such, Venerable Brethren, are the teachings and exhortations which We have seen good to utter, in order to stimulate devotion to the Holy Ghost. We have no doubt that, chiefly by means of your zeal and earnestness, they will bear abundant fruit among Christian peoples. We Ourselves shall never in the future fail to labour towards so important an end; and it is even Our intention, in whatever ways may appear suitable, to further cultivate and extend this admirable work of piety. Meanwhile, as two years ago, in Our Letter Provida Matris, We recommended to Catholics special prayers at the Feast of Pentecost, for the Re-union of Christendom, so now We desire to make certain further decrees on the same subject.
13. Wherefore, We decree and command that throughout the whole Catholic Church, this year and in every subsequent year, a Novena shall take place before Whit-Sunday, in all parish churches, and also, if the local Ordinaries think fit, in other churches and oratories. To all who take part in this Novena and duly pray for Our intention, We grant for each day an Indulgence of seven years and seven quarantines; moreover, a Plenary Indulgence on any one of the days of the Novena, or on Whit-Sunday itself, or on any day during the Octave; provided they shall have received the Sacraments of Penance and the Holy Eucharist, and devoutly prayed for Our intention. We will that those who are legitimately prevented from attending the Novena, or who are in places where the devotions cannot, in the judgment of the Ordinary, be conveniently carried out in church, shall equally enjoy the same benefits, provided they make the Novena privately and observe the other conditions. Moreover We are pleased to grant, in perpetuity, from the Treasury of the Church, that whosoever, daily during the Octave of Pentecost up to Trinity Sunday inclusive, offer again publicly or privately any prayers, according to their devotion, to the Holy Ghost, and satisfy the above conditions, shall a second time gain each of the same Indulgences. All these Indulgences We also permit to be applied to the suffrage of the souls in Purgatory.
14. And now Our mind and heart turn back to those hopes with which We began, and for the accomplishment of which We earnestly pray, and will continue to pray, to the Holy Ghost. Unite, then, Venerable Brethren, your prayers with Ours, and at your exhortation let all Christian peoples add their prayers also, invoking the powerful and ever-acceptable intercession of the Blessed Virgin. You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between her and the Holy Ghost, so that she is justly called His Spouse. The intercession of the Blessed Virgin was of great avail both in the mystery of the Incarnation and in the coming of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles. May she continue to strengthen our prayers with her suffrages, that, in the midst of all the stress and trouble of the nations, those divine prodigies may be happily revived by the Holy Ghost, which were foretold in the words of David: “Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created, and Thou shalt renew the face of the earth” (Ps. ciii., 30).
15. As a pledge of Divine favour and a testimony of Our affection, Venerable Brethren, to you, to your Clergy, and people, We gladly impart in the Lord the Apostolic Benediction.
Given at St. Peter’s in Rome, on the 9th day of May, 1897, in the 20th year of Our Pontificate.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 01:27:48 PM
Think about what the 3rd Glorious Mystery of the rosary really meant.
Also read this:
Divinum Illud Munus
On the Holy Spirit Divinum
Pope Leo XIII - May 9, 1897
To Our Venerable Brethren, The Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, Bishops, and other Local Ordinaries having Peace and Communion with the Holy See.
Venerable Brethren, Health and the Apostolic Benediction.
1. That divine office which Jesus Christ received from His Father for the welfare of mankind, and most perfectly fulfilled, had for its final object to put men in possession of the eternal life of glory, and proximately during the course of ages to secure to them the life of divine grace, which is destined eventually to blossom into the life of heaven. Wherefore, our Saviour never ceases to invite, with infinite affection, all men, of every race and tongue, into the bosom of His Church: “Come ye all to Me,” “I am the Life,” “I am the Good Shepherd.” Nevertheless, according to His inscrutable counsels, He did not will to entirely complete and finish this office Himself on earth, but as He had received it from the Father, so He transmitted it for its completion to the Holy Ghost. It is consoling to recall those assurances which Christ gave to the body of His disciples a little before He left the earth: “It is expedient to you that I go: for if I go not, the Paraclete will not come to you: but if I go, I will send Him to you” (1 John xvi., 7). In these words He gave as the chief reason of His departure and His return to the Father, the advantage which would most certainly accrue to His followers from the coming of the Holy Ghost, and, at the same time, He made it clear that the Holy Ghost is equally sent by-and therefore proceeds from – Himself and the Father; that He would complete, in His office of Intercessor, Consoler, and Teacher, the work which Christ Himself had begun in His mortal life. For, in the redemption of the world, the completion of the work was by Divine Providence reserved to the manifold power of that Spirit, who, in the creation, “adorned the heavens” (Job xxvi., 13), and “filled the whole world” (Wisdom i., 7).
2. Now We have earnestly striven, by the help of His grace, to follow the example of Christ, Our Saviour, the Prince of Pastors, and the Bishop of our Souls, by diligently carrying on His office, entrusted by Him to the Apostles and chiefly to Peter, “whose dignity faileth not, even in his unworthy successor” (St. Leo the Great, Sermon ii., On the Anniversary of his Election). In pursuance of this object We have endeavoured to direct all that We have attempted and persistently carried out during a long pontificate towards two chief ends: in the first place, towards the restoration, both in rulers and peoples, of the principles of the Christian life in civil and domestic society, since there is no true life for men except from Christ; and, secondly, to promote the reunion of those who have fallen away from the Catholic Church either by heresy or by schism, since it is most undoubtedly the will of Christ that all should be united in one flock under one Shepherd. But now that We are looking forward to the approach of the closing days of Our life, Our soul is deeply moved to dedicate to the Holy Ghost, who is the life-giving Love, all the work We have done during Our pontificate, that He may bring it to maturity and fruitfulness. In order the better and more fully to carry out this Our intention, We have resolved to address you at the approaching sacred season of Pentecost concerning the indwelling and miraculous power of the Holy Ghost; and the extent and efficiency of His action, both in the whole body of the Church and in the individual souls of its members, through the glorious abundance of His divine graces. We earnestly desire that, as a result, faith may be aroused in your minds concerning the mystery of the adorable Trinity, and especially that piety may increase and be inflamed towards the Holy Ghost, to whom especially all of us owe the grace of following the paths of truth and virtue; for, as St. Basil said, “Who denieth that the dispensations concerning man, which have been made by the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ, according to the goodness of God, have been fulfilled through the grace of the Spirit?” (Of the Holy Ghost, c. xvi., v. 39).
3. Before We enter upon this subject, it will be both desirable and useful to say a few words about the Mystery of the Blessed Trinity. This dogma is called by the doctors of the Church “the substance of the New Testament,” that is to say, the greatest of all mysteries, since it is the fountain and origin of them all. In order to know and contemplate this mystery, the angels were created in Heaven and men upon earth. In order to teach more fully this mystery, which was but foreshadowed in the Old Testament, God Himself came down from the angels unto men: “No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him” (John i., 18). Whosoever then writes or speaks of the Trinity must keep before His eyes the prudent warning of the Angelic Doctor: “When we speak of the Trinity, we must do so with caution and modesty, for, as St. Augustine saith, nowhere else are more dangerous errors made, or is research more difficult, or discovery more fruitful” (Summ. Th. la., q. xxxi. De Trin. 1 1., c. 3). The danger that arises is lest the Divine Persons be confounded one with the other in faith or worship, or lest the one Nature in them be separated: for “This is the Catholic Faith, that we should adore one God in Trinity and Trinity in Unity.” Therefore Our predecessor Innocent XII, absolutely refused the petition of those who desired a special festival in honour of God the Father. For, although the separate mysteries connected with the Incarnate Word are celebrated on certain fixed days, yet there is no special feast on which the Word is honoured according to His Divine Nature alone. And even the Feast of Pentecost was instituted in the earliest times, not simply to honour the Holy Ghost in Himself, but to commemorate His coming, or His external mission. And all this has been wisely ordained, lest from distinguishing the Persons men should be led to distinguish the Divine Essence. Moreover the Church, in order to preserve in her children the purity of faith, instituted the Feast of the Most Holy Trinity, which John XXII. afterwards extended to the Universal Church. He also permitted altars and churches to be dedicated to the Blessed Trinity, and, with the divine approval, sanctioned the Order for the Ransom of Captives, which is specially devoted to the Blessed Trinity and bears Its name. Many facts confirm its truths. The worship paid to the saints and angels, to the Mother of God, and to Christ Himself, finally redounds to the honour of the Blessed Trinity. In prayers addressed to one Per son, there is also mention of the others; in the litanies after the individual Persons have been separately invoked, a common invocation of all is added: all psalms and hymns conclude with the doxology to the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost; blessings, sacred rites, and sacraments are either accompanied or concluded by the invocation of the Blessed Trinity. This was already foreshadowed by the Apostle in those words: “For of Him, and by Him, and in Him, are all things: to Him be glory for ever” (Rom. xi., 36), thereby signifying both the Trinity of Persons and the Unity of Nature: for as this is one and the same in each of the Persons, so to each is equally owing supreme glory, as to one and the same God. St. Augustine commenting upon this testimony writes: “The words of the Apostle, of Him, and by Him, and in Him are not to be taken indiscriminately; of Him refers to the Father, by Him to the Son, in Him to the Holy Ghost” (De Trin. 1. vi., c. 10; 1. i., c. 6). The Church is accustomed most fittingly to attribute to the Father those works of the Divinity in which power excels, to the Son those in which wisdom excels, and those in which love excels to the Holy Ghost. Not that all perfections and external operations are not common to the Divine Persons; for “the operations of the Trinity are indivisible, even as the essence of the Trinity is indivisible” (St. Aug., De Trin., 1. 1, cc. 4-5); because as the three Divine Persons “are inseparable, so do they act inseparably” (St. Aug., ib.). But by a certain comparison, and a kind of affinity between the operations and the properties of the Persons, these operations are attributed or, as it is said, “appropriated” to One Person rather than to the others. “Just as we make use of the traces of similarity or likeness which we find in creatures for the manifestation of the Divine Persons, so do we use Their essential attributes; and this manifestation of the Persons by Their essential attributes is called appropriation” (St. Th. la., q. 39, xxxix., a. 7). In this manner the Father, who is “the principle of the whole God-head” (St. Aug. De Trin. 1 iv., c. 20) is also the efficient cause of all things, of the Incarnation of the Word, and the sanctification of souls; “of Him are all things”: of Him, referring to the Father. But the Son, the Word, the Image of God is also the exemplar cause, whence all creatures borrow their form and beauty, their order and harmony. He is for us the Way, the Truth, and the Life; the Reconciler of man with God. “By Him are all things”: by Him, referring to the Son. The Holy Ghost is the ultimate cause of all things, since, as the will and all other things finally rest in their end, so He, who is the Divine Goodness and the Mutual Love of the Father and Son, completes and perfects, by His strong yet gentle power, the secret work of man’s eternal salvation. “In Him are all things”: in Him, referring to the Holy Ghost.
4. Having thus paid the due tribute of faith and worship owing to the Blessed Trinity, and which ought to be more and more inculcated upon the Christian people, we now turn to the exposition of the power of the Holy Ghost. And, first of all, we must look to Christ, the Founder of the Church and the Redeemer of our race. Among the external operations of God, the highest of all is the mystery of the Incarnation of the Word, in which the splendour of the divine perfections shines forth so brightly that nothing more sublime can even be imagined, nothing else could have been more salutary to the human race. Now this work, although belonging to the whole Trinity, is still appropriated especially to the Holy Ghost, so that the Gospels thus speak of the Blessed Virgin: “She was found with child of the Holy Ghost,” and “that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost” (Matt. i., 18, 20). And this is rightly attributed to Him who is the love of the Father and the Son, since this “great mystery of piety” (1 Tim. iii., 16) proceeds from the infinite love of God towards man, as St. John tells us: “God so loved the world as to give His only begotten Son” John iii., 16). Moreover, human nature was thereby elevated to a personal union with the Word; and this dignity is given, not on account of any merits, but entirely and absolutely through grace, and therefore, as it were, through the special gift of the Holy Ghost. On this point St. Augustine writes: “This manner in which Christ was born of the Holy Ghost, indicates to us the grace of God, by which humanity, with no antecedent merits, at the first moment of its existence, was united with the Word of God, by so intimate a personal union, that He, who was the Son of Man, was also the Son of God, and He who was the Son of God was also the Son of Man” (Enchir., c. xl. St. Th., 3a., q. xxxii., a. 1). By the operation of the Holy Spirit, not only was the conception of Christ accomplished, but also the sanctification of His soul, which, in Holy Scripture, is called His “anointing” (Acts x., 38). Wherefore all His actions were “performed in the Holy Ghost” (St. Basil de Sp. S., c. xvi.), and especially the sacrifice of Himself: “Christ, through the Holy Ghost, offered Himself without spot to God” (Heb. ix., 14). Considering this, no one can be surprised that all the gifts of the Holy Ghost inundated the soul of Christ. In Him resided the absolute fullness of grace, in the greatest and most efficacious manner possible; in Him were all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, graces gratis datae, virtues, and all other gifts foretold in the prophecies of Isaias (Is. iv., I; xi., 23), and also signified in that miraculous dove which appeared at the Jordan, when Christ, by His baptism, consecrated its waters for a new sacrament. On this the words of St. Augustine may appropriately be quoted: “It would be absurd to say that Christ received the Holy Ghost when He was already thirty years of age, for He came to His baptism without sin, and therefore not without the Holy Ghost. At this time, then (that is, at His baptism), He was pleased to prefigure His Church, in which those especially who are baptized receive the Holy Ghost” (De. Trin. 1., xv., c. 26). Therefore, by the conspicuous apparition of the Holy Ghost over Christ and by His invisible power in His soul, the twofold mission of the Spirit is foreshadowed, namely, His outward and visible mission in the Church, and His secret indwelling in the souls of the just.
5. The Church which, already conceived, came forth from the side of the second Adam in His sleep on the Cross, first showed herself before the eyes of men on the great day of Pentecost. On that day the Holy Ghost began to manifest His gifts in the mystic body of Christ, by that miraculous outpouring already foreseen by the prophet Joel (ii., 28-29), for the Paraclete “sat upon the apostles as though new spiritual crowns were placed upon their heads in tongues of fire” (S. Cyril Hier. Catech. 17). Then the apostles “descended from the mountain,” as St. John Chrysostom writes, “not bearing in their hands tables of stone like Moses, but carrying the Spirit in their mind, and pouring forth the treasure and the fountain of doctrines and graces” (In Matt. Hom. 1., 2 Cor. iii., 3). Thus was fully accomplished that last promise of Christ to His apostles of sending the Holy Ghost, who was to complete and, as it were, to seal the deposit of doctrine committed to them under His inspiration. “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now; but when He, the Spirit of Truth, shall come, He will teach you all truth” (John xvi., 1213). For He who is the Spirit of Truth, inasmuch as He proceedeth both from the Father, who is the eternally True, and from the Son, who is the substantial Truth, receiveth from each both His essence and the fullness of all truth. This truth He communicates to His Church, guarding her by His all powerful help from ever falling into error, and aiding her to foster daily more and more the germs of divine doctrine and to make them fruitful for the welfare of the peoples. And since the welfare of the peoples, for which the Church was established, absolutely requires that this office should be continued for all time, the Holy Ghost perpetually supplies life and strength to preserve and increase the Church. “I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Paraclete, that He may abide with you for ever, the Spirit of Truth” John xiv., 16, 17).
6. By Him the bishops are constituted, and by their ministry are multiplied not only the children, but also the fathers – that is to say, the priests – to rule and feed the Church by that Blood wherewith Christ has redeemed Her. “The Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops to rule the Church of God, which He hath purchased with His own Blood” (Acts xx., 28). And both bishops and priests, by the miraculous gift of the Spirit, have the power of absolving sins, according to those words of Christ to the Apostles: “Receive ye the Holy Ghost; whose sins you shall forgive they are forgiven them, and whose you shall retain they are retained” John xx., 22, 23). That the Church is a divine institution is most clearly proved by the splendour and glory of those gifts and graces with which she is adorned, and whose author and giver is the Holy Ghost. Let it suffice to state that, as Christ is the Head of the Church, so is the Holy Ghost her soul. “What the soul is in our body, that is the Holy Ghost in Christ’s body, the Church” (St. Aug., Serm. 187, de Temp.). This being so, no further and fuller “manifestation and revelation of the Divine Spirit” may be imagined or expected; for that which now takes place in the Church is the most perfect possible, and will last until that day when the Church herself, having passed through her militant career, shall be taken up into the joy of the saints triumphing in heaven.
7. The manner and extent of the action of the Holy Ghost in individual souls is no less wonderful, although somewhat more difficult to understand, inasmuch as it is entirely invisible. This outpouring of the Spirit is so abundant, that Christ Himself, from whose gift it proceeds, compares it to an overflowing river, according to those words of St. John: “He that believeth in Me, as the Scripture saith, out of his midst shall flow rivers of living water”; to which testimony the Evangelist adds the explanation: “Now this He said of the Spirit which they should receive who believed in Him” John vii., 38, 39). It is indeed true that in those of the just who lived before Christ, the Holy Ghost resided by grace, as we read in the Scriptures concerning the prophets, Zachary, John the Baptist, Simeon, and Anna; so that on Pentecost the Holy Ghost did not communicate Himself in such a way “as then for the first time to begin to dwell in the saints, but by pouring Himself forth more abundantly; crowning, not beginning His gifts; not commencing a new work, but giving more abundantly” (St. Leo the Great, Hom. iii., de Pentec.). But if they also were numbered among the children of God, they were in a state like that of servants, for “as long as the heir is a child he differeth nothing from a servant, but is under tutors and governors” (Gal. iv., 1, 2). Moreover, not only was their justice derived from the merits of Christ who was to come, but the communication of the Holy Ghost after Christ was much more abundant, just as the price surpasses in value the earnest and the reality excels the image. Wherefore St. John declares: “As yet the Spirit was not given, because Jesus was not yet glorified” John vii., 39). So soon, therefore, as Christ, “ascending on high,” entered into possession of the glory of His Kingdom which He had won with so much la our, He munificently opened out the treasures of the Holy Ghost: “He gave gifts to men” (Eph. iv., 8). For “that giving or sending forth of the Holy Ghost after Christ’s glorification was to be such as had never been before; not that there had been none before, but it had not been of the same kind” (St. Aug., De Trin., 1. iv. c. 20).
8. Human nature is by necessity the servant of God: “The creature is a servant; we are the servants of God by nature” (St. Cyr. Alex., Thesaur. 1. v., c. 5). On account, however, of original sin, our whole nature had fallen into such guilt and dishonour that we had become enemies to God. “We were by nature the children of wrath” (Eph. ii., 3). There was no power which could raise us and deliver us from this ruin and eternal destruction. But God, the Creator of mankind and infinitely merciful, did this through His only begotten Son, by whose benefit it was brought about that man was restored so that rank and dignity whence he had fallen, and was adorned with still more abundant graces. No one can express the greatness of this work of divine grace in the souls of men. Wherefore, both in Holy Scripture and in the writings of the fathers, men are styled regenerated, new creatures, partakers of the Divine Nature, children of God, god-like, and similar epithets. Now these great blessings are justly attributed as especially belonging to the Holy Ghost. He is “the Spirit of adoption of sons, whereby we cry: Abba, Father.” He fills our hearts with the sweetness of paternal love: “The Spirit Himself giveth testimony to our spirit that we are the sons of God” (Rom. viii., 15-16). This truth accords with the similitude observed by the Angelic Doctor between both operations of the Holy Ghost; for through Him “Christ was conceived in holiness to be by nature the Son of God,” and “others are sanctified to be the sons of God by adoption” (St. Th. 3a, q. xx ii., a. 1). This spiritual generation proceeds from love in a much more noble manner than the natural: namely, from the uncreated Love.
9. The beginnings of this regeneration and renovation of man are by Baptism. In this sacrament, when the unclean spirit has been expelled from the soul, the Holy Ghost enters in and makes it like to Himself. “That which is born of the Spirit, is spirit” john iii., 6). The same Spirit gives Himself more abundantly in Confirmation, strengthening and confirming Christian life; from which proceeded the victory of the martyrs and the triumph of the virgins over temptations and corruptions. We have said that the Holy Ghost gives Himself: “the charity of God is poured out into our hearts by the Holy Ghost who is given to us” (Rom. v., 5). For He not only brings to us His divine gifts, but is the Author of them and is Himself the supreme Gift, who, proceeding from the mutual love of the Father and the Son, is justly believed to be and is called “Gift of God most High.” To show the nature and efficacy of this gift it is well to recall the explanation given by the doctors of the Church of the words of Holy Scripture. They say that God is present and exists in all things, “by His power, in so far as all things are subject to His power; by His presence, inasmuch as all things are naked and open to His eyes; by His essence, inasmuch as he is present to all as the cause of their being.” (St. Th. Ia, q. viii., a. 3). But God is in man, not only as in inanimate things, but because he is more fully known and loved by him, since even by nature we spontaneously love, desire, and seek after the good. Moreover, God by grace resides in the just soul as in a temple, in a most intimate and peculiar manner. From this proceeds that union of affection by which the soul adheres most closely to God, more so than the friend is united to his most loving and beloved friend, and enjoys God in all fullness and sweetness. Now this wonderful union, which is properly called “indwelling,” differing only in degree or state from that with which God beatifies the saints in heaven, although it is most certainly produced by the presence of the whole Blessed Trinity – “We will come to Him and make our abode with Him,” John xiv. 23.) – nevertheless is attributed in a peculiar manner to the Holy Ghost. For, whilst traces of divine power and wisdom appear even in the wicked man, charity, which, as it were, is the special mark of the Holy Ghost, is shared in only by the just. In harmony with this, the same Spirit is called Holy, for He, the first and supreme Love, moves souls and leads them to sanctity, which ultimately consists in the love of God. Wherefore the apostle when calling us to the temple of God, does not expressly mention the Father or the Son, or the Holy Ghost: “Know ye not that your members are the temple of the Holy Ghost, who is in you, whom you have from God?” (1 Cor. vi. 19). The fullness of divine gifts is in many ways a consequence of the indwelling of the Holy Ghost in the souls of the just. For, as St. Thomas teaches, “when the Holy Ghost proceedeth as love, He proceedeth in the character of the first gift; whence Augustine saith that, through the gift which is the Holy Ghost, many other special gifts are distributed among the members of Christ.” (Summ. Th., la. q. xxxviii., a. 2. St. Aug. De Trin., xv., c. 19). Among these gifts are those secret warnings and invitations, which from time to time are excited in our minds and hearts by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. Without these there is no beginning of a good life, no progress, no arriving at eternal salvation. And since these words and admonitions are uttered in the soul in an exceedingly secret manner, they are sometimes aptly compared in Holy Writ to the breathing of a coming breeze, and the Angelic Doctor likens them to the movements of the heart which are wholly hidden in the living body. “Thy heart has a certain hidden power, and therefore the Holy Ghost, who invisibly vivifies and unites the Church, is compared to the heart.”(Summ. Th. 3a, q. vii., a. 1, ad 3). More than this, the just man, that is to say he who lives the life of divine grace, and acts by the fitting virtues as by means of faculties, has need of those seven gifts which are properly attributed to the Holy Ghost. By means of them the soul is furnished and strengthened so as to obey more easily and promptly His voice and impulse. Wherefore these gifts are of such efficacy that they lead the just man to the highest degree of sanctity; and of such excellence that they continue to exist even in heaven, though in a more perfect way. By means of these gifts the soul is excited and encouraged to seek after and attain the evangelical beatitudes, which, like the flowers that come forth in the spring time, are the signs and harbingers of eternal beatitude. Lastly there are those blessed fruits, enumerated by the Apostle (Gal. v., 22), which the Spirit, even in this mortal life, produces and shows forth in the just; fruits filled with all sweetness and joy, inasmuch as they proceed from the Spirit, “who is in the Trinity the sweetness of both Father and Son, filling all creatures with infinite fullness and profusion.” (St. Aug. De Trin. 1. vi., c. 9). The Divine Spirit, proceeding from the Father and the Word in the eternal light of sanctity, Himself both Love and Gift, after having manifested Himself through the veils of figures in the Old Testament, poured forth all his fullness upon Christ and upon His mystic Body, the Church; and called back by his presence and grace men who were going away in wickedness and corruption with such salutary effect that, being no longer of the earth earthy, they relished and desired quite other things, becoming of heaven heavenly.
10. These sublime truths, which so clearly show forth the infinite goodness of the Holy Ghost towards us, certainly demand that we should direct towards Him the highest homage of our love and devotion. Christians may do this most effectually if they will daily strive to know Him, to love Him, and to implore Him more earnestly; for which reason may this Our exhortation, flowing spontaneously from a paternal heart, reach their ears. Perchance there are still to be found among them, even nowadays, some, who if asked, as were those of old by St. Paul the Apostle, whether they have received the Holy Ghost, might answer in like manner: “We have not so much as heard whether there be a Holy Ghost” (Acts xix., 2). At least there are certainly many who are very deficient in their religious practices, but their faith is involved in much darkness. Wherefore all preachers and those having care of souls should remember that it is their duty to instruct their people more diligently and more fully about the Holy Ghost – avoiding, however, difficult and subtle controversies, and eschewing the dangerous folly of those who rashly endeavour to pry into divine mysteries. What should be chiefly dwelt upon and clearly explained is the multitude and greatness of the benefits which have been bestowed, and are constantly bestowed, upon us by this Divine Giver, so that errors and ignorance concerning matters of such moment may be entirely dispelled, as unworthy of “the children of light.” We urge this, not only because it affects a mystery by which we are directly guided to eternal life, and which must therefore be firmly believed; but also because the more clearly and fully the good is known the more earnestly it is loved. Now we owe to the Holy Ghost, as we mentioned in the second place, love, because He is God: “Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, and with thy whole soul, and with thy whole strength” (Deut. vi., 5). He is also to be loved because He is the substantial, eternal, primal Love, and nothing is more lovable than love. And this all the more because He has overwhelmed us with the greatest benefits, which both testify to the benevolence of the Giver and claim the gratitude of the receiver. This love has a twofold and most conspicuous utility. In the first place it will excite us to acquire daily a clearer knowledge about the Holy Ghost; for, as the Angelic Doctor says, “the lover is not content with the superficial knowledge of the beloved, but striveth to inquire intimately into all that appertains to the beloved, and thus to penetrate into the interior; as is said of the Holy Ghost, Who is the Love of God, that He searcheth even the profound things of God” (1 Cor. ii., 10; Summ. Theol., la. 2ae., q. 28, a. 2). In the second place it will obtain for us a still more abundant supply of heavenly gifts; for whilst a narrow heart contracteth the hand of the giver, a grateful and mindful heart causeth it to expand. Yet we must strive that this love should be of such a nature as not to consist merely in dry speculations or external observances, but rather to run forward towards action, and especially to fly from sin, which is in a more special manner offensive to the Holy Spirit. For whatever we are, that we are by the divine goodness; and this goodness is specially attributed to the Holy Ghost. The sinner offends this his Benefactor, abusing His gifts; and taking advantage of His goodness becomes more hardened in sin day by day. Again, since He is the Spirit of Truth, whosoever faileth by weakness or ignorance may perhaps have some excuse before Almighty God; but he who resists the truth through malice and turns away from it, sins most grievously against the Holy Ghost. In our days this sin has become so frequent that those dark times seem to have come which were foretold by St. Paul, in which men, blinded by the just judgment of God, should take falsehood for truth, and should believe in “the prince of this world,” who is a liar and the father thereof, as a teacher of truth: “God shall send them the operation of error, to believe Iying (2 Thess. ii., 10). In the last times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to spirits of error and the doctrines of devils” (1 Tim. iv., 1). But since the Holy Ghost, as We have said, dwells in us as in His temple, We must repeat the warning of the Apostle: “Grieve not the Holy Spirit of God, whereby you are sealed” (Eph. iv., 30). Nor is it enough to fly from sin; every Christian ought to shine with the splendour of virtue so as to be pleasing to so great and so beneficent a guest; and first of all with chastity and holiness, for chaste and holy things befit the temple. Hence the words of the Apostle: “Know you not that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? But if any man violate the temple of God, him shall God destroy. For the temple of God is holy, which you are” (1 Cor. iii., 16-17): a terrible, in deed, but a just warning.
11. Lastly, we ought to pray to and invoke the Holy Spirit, for each one of us greatly needs His protection and His help. The more a man is deficient in wisdom, weak in strength, borne down with trouble, prone to sin, so ought he the more to fly to Him who is the never-ceasing fount of light, strength, consolation, and holiness. And chiefly that first requisite of man, the forgiveness of sins, must be sought for from Him: “It is the special character of the Holy Ghost that He is the Gift of the Father and the Son. Now the remission of all sins is given by the Holy Ghost as by the Gift of God” (Summ. Th. 3a, q. iii., a. 8, ad 3m). Concerning this Spirit the words of the Liturgy are very explicit: “For He is the remission of all sins” (Roman Missal, Tuesday after Pentecost). How He should be invoked is clearly taught by the Church, who addresses Him in humble supplication, calling upon Him by the sweetest of names: “Come, Father of the poor! Come, Giver of gifts! Come, Light of our hearts! O. best of Consolers, sweet Guest of the soul, our refreshment!” (Hymn, Veni Sancte Spiritus). She earnestly implores Him to wash, heal, water our minds and hearts, and to give to us who trust in Him “the merit of virtue, the acquirement of salvation, and joy everlasting.” Nor can it be in any way doubted that He will listen to such prayer, since we read the words written by His own inspiration: “The Spirit Himself asketh for us with unspeakable groanings” (Rom. viii., 26). Lastly, we ought confidently and continually to beg of Him to illuminate us daily more and more with His light and inflame us with His charity: for, thus inspired with faith and love, we may press onward earnestly towards our eternal reward, since He “is the pledge of our inheritance” (Eph. i. 14).
12. Such, Venerable Brethren, are the teachings and exhortations which We have seen good to utter, in order to stimulate devotion to the Holy Ghost. We have no doubt that, chiefly by means of your zeal and earnestness, they will bear abundant fruit among Christian peoples. We Ourselves shall never in the future fail to labour towards so important an end; and it is even Our intention, in whatever ways may appear suitable, to further cultivate and extend this admirable work of piety. Meanwhile, as two years ago, in Our Letter Provida Matris, We recommended to Catholics special prayers at the Feast of Pentecost, for the Re-union of Christendom, so now We desire to make certain further decrees on the same subject.
13. Wherefore, We decree and command that throughout the whole Catholic Church, this year and in every subsequent year, a Novena shall take place before Whit-Sunday, in all parish churches, and also, if the local Ordinaries think fit, in other churches and oratories. To all who take part in this Novena and duly pray for Our intention, We grant for each day an Indulgence of seven years and seven quarantines; moreover, a Plenary Indulgence on any one of the days of the Novena, or on Whit-Sunday itself, or on any day during the Octave; provided they shall have received the Sacraments of Penance and the Holy Eucharist, and devoutly prayed for Our intention. We will that those who are legitimately prevented from attending the Novena, or who are in places where the devotions cannot, in the judgment of the Ordinary, be conveniently carried out in church, shall equally enjoy the same benefits, provided they make the Novena privately and observe the other conditions. Moreover We are pleased to grant, in perpetuity, from the Treasury of the Church, that whosoever, daily during the Octave of Pentecost up to Trinity Sunday inclusive, offer again publicly or privately any prayers, according to their devotion, to the Holy Ghost, and satisfy the above conditions, shall a second time gain each of the same Indulgences. All these Indulgences We also permit to be applied to the suffrage of the souls in Purgatory.
14. And now Our mind and heart turn back to those hopes with which We began, and for the accomplishment of which We earnestly pray, and will continue to pray, to the Holy Ghost. Unite, then, Venerable Brethren, your prayers with Ours, and at your exhortation let all Christian peoples add their prayers also, invoking the powerful and ever-acceptable intercession of the Blessed Virgin. You know well the intimate and wonderful relations existing between her and the Holy Ghost, so that she is justly called His Spouse. The intercession of the Blessed Virgin was of great avail both in the mystery of the Incarnation and in the coming of the Holy Ghost upon the Apostles. May she continue to strengthen our prayers with her suffrages, that, in the midst of all the stress and trouble of the nations, those divine prodigies may be happily revived by the Holy Ghost, which were foretold in the words of David: “Send forth Thy Spirit and they shall be created, and Thou shalt renew the face of the earth” (Ps. ciii., 30).
15. As a pledge of Divine favour and a testimony of Our affection, Venerable Brethren, to you, to your Clergy, and people, We gladly impart in the Lord the Apostolic Benediction.
Given at St. Peter’s in Rome, on the 9th day of May, 1897, in the 20th year of Our Pontificate.


I'm NOT going to read your entire post above. Just tell me where it shows that the Holy Ghost is proven to ALWAYS be with the Popes, and guiding the Popes, and that He will not allow the Popes to fall into sin (which includes the sin of heresy).
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 01:38:19 PM
Another person who heretically believes that Catholics can be heretics. Perhaps this is why she considers herself Catholic.
She refuses to take the time to read for fear she might learn something Catholic written by a True Pope.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 01:38:33 PM
Another person who heretically believes that Catholics can be heretics. Perhaps this is why she considers herself Catholic.

Silly Pharisede.  :laugh1:

Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 01:45:29 PM
So you admit that you believe that heretics are Catholics.

Aren't those who deny even one dogma of the Church considered heretics?
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 01:50:53 PM
She refuses to take the time to read for fear she might learn something Catholic written by a True Pope.

Notice that Myrna did not point out where in her lengthy post where it says that the Holy Ghost will ALWAYS be with the Pope, and will guide the Pope and make sure the Pope does not fall into any kind of sin (including heresy).
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 01:57:22 PM
Yes. And unless you believe that heretics can be Catholics, a heretic cannot be Pope. Of course, if you believe that heretics can be Catholic, you yourself would not be Catholic. It is a dogma that Heretics are not in the Church.

Well then, since you obviously deny the dogma that we must be subject to the Pope, then wouldn't that make you a heretic?
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 02:18:49 PM
LOL. It's funny that you think you got me on this one. You obviously don't know what being subject to the Pope means. If it meant what you think it does and want to apply it to Sedes then you would have to say that everyone who lived in between the death of a Pope and the reelection of another, denied that Dogma. Also, you would have to say that those under the age of or without the use of reason by nature, deny the Dogma, because they don't have the ability to be subject to the Pope, without the use of reason. The problem is that being subject of the Pope is proof that Baptism is necessary. We are made subject to the Pope through our Baptism as Trent defined.

You seem to think that I'm required to accept the Pharisede definition of being subject to the Pope. Not gonna happen. I know you think that you're superior to all non-Sedes, but you're not.

:jester:

You are not subject to the current Pope. Therefore you deny the dogma. Simple.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 02:26:29 PM
Prove it. I have, you have not.

Prove that you are subject to the current Pope. 
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 02:33:29 PM
We do not have a current Pope.

The dogma that we are required to be subject to the Pope doesn't not give a qualificaton of being able to choose as to whether or not a Pope is a true Pope. We aren't given a choice. The dogma says nothing about that at all. And the dogma does not refer to an interregnum.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 02:34:07 PM
Prove that you are subject to the current Pope.
Meg for you to say you are subject to the CURRENT Francis man, is to disobey all the other TRUE POPES.  Therefore you are subject to nothing Catholic.  
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 02:36:36 PM
Meg for you to say you are subject to the CURRENT Francis man, is to disobey all the other TRUE POPES.  Therefore you are subject to nothing Catholic.  

Typical Pharisede comment. I'm subject to nothing Catholic because I don't deny that the Pope is the Pope, and therefore I disobey all other Popes. Right.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Meg on November 09, 2017, 02:38:59 PM
Where does the Dogma say to be subject to a heretic?

The dogma says nothing about heresy at all.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 02:53:21 PM
Typical Pharisede comment. I'm subject to nothing Catholic because I don't deny that the Pope is the Pope, and therefore I disobey all other Popes. Right.
Subject to means a situation (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/situation) where you have to obey (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/obey) a rule (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/rule_1) or a law (https://www.macmillandictionary.com/us/dictionary/american/law), by obeying Francis denying the First Commandment, not only are you disobeying God's Divine Law but and past popes who have instructed us according to the teachings of Jesus.

If you deny what Francis believes you are not subject to him, you just ignore your pope and bad mouth the Vicar of Christ.  

Which is it?
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 09, 2017, 02:54:48 PM

1. What does it mean to be subject to the Pope?
2. If you don't think it's through Baptism, then who is and isn't subject to him?
1) You said "being subject to the pope is being subject to God" - that's the only meaning it has for you, crazy but true. There is no other meaning for you - correct?

2) Catholics are subject to the pope, sedevacantists are not.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 02:56:31 PM
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This is exactly why women are not to teach!!! YOU LIE AND DISTORT.

2 Timothy 3:5-7 [5] Having an appearance indeed of godliness, but denying the power thereof. Now these avoid. [6] For of these sort are they who creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, who are led away with divers desires: [7] Ever learning, and never attaining to the knowledge of the truth.
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Look at the commentary on verse 12, that you distort; "They are made the children of God by believing and by a new spiritual birth in the sacrament of baptism, … not by the will [desire] of men … but of God, by faith and divine grace.
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George Leo Haydock (1774–1849), scion of an ancient English Catholic Recusant family, was a priest, pastor and Bible scholar.  [HE WAS A FALLIBLE MAN]
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The modus operandi, does not change with the false traditionalists, BOD proponents, using statements of fallible men to destroy statements of infallible men, its beyond insanity.
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Lets take your argument; you say it refers to bloodlines of man i.e. "bloods".  What are bloodlines, i.e. bloods?  They are the blood of ANY man.  Commentary #10-12 is referencing anything related to man i.e. bloods, bloodline, flesh, will, desire, etc does not confer justification, period.  Which goes right back to; baptism of desire or blood of any unbaptized man, it does nothing, faith alone is dead.  This whole argument has been about man and God.  Obedience and disobedience.  The doctrines of men and the doctrines of God, relating to the gateway to the Catholic church.  It has been about what man says is necessary to be a member of the Catholic church and what God has said is necessary to be a member of the Catholic church.  
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Man's Doctrine of membership.
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Baptism of Desire of any man; Baptism of Blood of any man [plurality, bloods]; grants justification.  But hope, [desire], faith alone by itself, is dead.  Its a fallacy.
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Its interesting that you cited commentary on verse 10 and 11.  It talks about disobedience, and those husbandmen who kicked Jesus out of His own family and the few who are saved!  Verse 12, talks about God giving power of disposition [the desire], so that they can be made the adoptive sons of God.  Which directly reflects Session VI, chapters 5 and 6, regarding preparation or disposition.  And they are made adoptive sons, by believing.  What does it mean to believe?
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Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands to them that love me, and keep my commandments.
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The verse above is extremely revealing!  It says that mercy is only given to men, who does and keeps the commandments.  The sacrament of Baptism is the mercy and commandment of God.  But by your own comments you have separated mercy from the command of the sacrament of baptism, itself.  And therefore, you continue to deny Trent because Trent says that hope and charity, together, are infused with faith, at once.   Here is your comment below.
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"We all believe the SACRAMENT OF BAPTISM is necessary, but in God's Mercy, He has provided those of FAITH AND DIVINE GRACE [A MEANS OF SALVATION although not the Sacrament] for there is only One Sacrament of Baptism but also the Mercy of God of which you deny."
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There is no better example of double speak, than your comment!
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Here are more demonstrative verses that believing is doing, completing the action of.
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John 10:36-38 [36] Do you say of him whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world: Thou blasphemest, because I said, I am the Son of God? [37] If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. [38] But if I do, though you will not believe me, believe the works: that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.
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Hebrews 13:20-21  [20] And may the God of peace, who brought again from the dead the great pastor of the sheep, our Lord Jesus Christ, in the blood of the everlasting testament, [21] Fit you in all goodness, that you may do his will; doing in you that which is well pleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom is glory for ever and ever. Amen.
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Ecclesiasticus 32:28 He that believeth God, taketh heed to the commandments: …
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John 14:15 If you love me, keep my commandments.
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Matthew 7:21-27  [21] Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven. [22] Many will say to me in that day: Lord, Lord, have not we prophesied in thy name, and cast out devils in thy name, and done many miracles in thy name? [23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, you that work iniquity. [24] Every one therefore that heareth these my words, and doth them, shall be likened to a wise man that built his house upon a rock, [25] And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell not, for it was founded on a rock. [26] And every one that heareth these my words, and doth them not, shall be like a foolish man that built his house upon the sand, [27] And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and they beat upon that house, and it fell, and great was the fall thereof.
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Notice that, it's the doing, the will of God, that is advantageous.  
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Here is God's Doctrine of membership.
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Hope [desire] and charity [laver of regeneration] together, at once, infused with Faith, man becomes adopted sons of God.
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Council of Trent. Session VI.
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CHAPTER IV.
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A description is introduced of the Justification of the impious, and of the Manner thereof under the law of grace.

By which words, a description of the Justification of the impious is indicated,-as being a translation, from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour. And this translation, since the promulgation of the Gospel, cannot be effected, without the laver of regeneration [charity], or the desire [hope] thereof, as it is written; "unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Ghost, he cannot enter into the Kingdom of God."
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Pope Paul III confirms the necessity of both together, hope [desire] and charity [laver of regeneration], at once, in chapter VII of Session VI.  
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CHAPTER VII.
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What the justification of the impious is, and what are the causes thereof.
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This disposition, or preparation, is followed by Justification itself, which is not remission of sins merely, but also the sanctification and renewal of the inward man, through the voluntary reception of the grace, and of the gifts, whereby man of unjust becomes just, and of an enemy a friend, that so he may be an heir according to hope of life everlasting.
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Of this Justification the causes are these: the final cause indeed is the glory of God and of Jesus Christ, and life everlasting; while the efficient cause is a merciful God who washes and sanctifies gratuitously, signing, and anointing with the holy Spirit of promise, who is the pledge of our inheritance; but the meritorious cause is His most beloved only-begotten, our Lord Jesus Christ, who, when we were enemies, for the exceeding charity wherewith he loved us, merited Justification for us by His most holy Passion on the wood of the cross, and made satisfaction for us unto God the Father; the instrumental cause is the sacrament of baptism, which is the sacrament of faith, without which (faith) no man was ever justified; lastly, the alone formal cause is the justice of God, not that whereby He Himself is just, but that whereby He maketh us just, that, to wit, with which we being endowed by Him, are renewed in the spirit of our mind, and we are not only reputed, but are truly called, and are, just, receiving justice within us, each one according to his own measure, which the Holy Ghost distributes to every one as He wills, and according to each one's proper disposition and co-operation.
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For, although no one can be just, but he to whom the merits of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ are communicated, yet is this done in the said justification of the impious, when by the merit of that same most holy Passion, the charity of God is poured forth, by the Holy Spirit, in the hearts of those that are justified, and is inherent therein: whence, man, through Jesus Christ, in whom he is ingrafted, receives, in the said justification, together with the remission of sins, all these (gifts) infused at once, faith, hope, and charity. For faith, unless hope and charity be added thereto, neither unites man perfectly with Christ, nor makes him a living member of His body. For which reason it is most truly said, that Faith without works is dead and profitless; and, In Christ Jesus neither circuмcision, availeth anything, nor uncircuмcision, but faith which worketh by charity. This faith, Catechumen's beg of the Church-agreeably to a tradition of the apostles-previously to the sacrament of Baptism; when they beg for the faith which bestows life everlasting, which, without hope and charity, faith cannot bestow: whence also do they immediately hear that word of Christ; If thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Wherefore, when receiving true and Christian justice, they are bidden, immediately on being born again, to preserve it pure and spotless, as the first robe given them through Jesus Christ in lieu of that which Adam, by his disobedience, lost for himself and for us, that so they may bear it before the judgment-seat of our Lord Jesus Christ, and may have life everlasting.
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Take notice in chapter VII, the disposition [desire] itself, does not grant justification, it must be followed by justification itself.
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Pope Julius III, affirms Pope Paul III when he gave the exact and full definition of Justification of the impious. Pope Julius III, omitted the word desire from the laver of regeneration, in Session XIV chapters. 2 and 4.  Why?  Because both desire and the laver of regeneration, together, are necessary.  Because both hope and charity, at once, are infused with Faith.  Faith alone is dead.
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St. John confirms this, in the infallible gospel of St. John.
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John 1:12-13 But as many as received him, he gave them power to be made the sons of God, to them that believe in his name. [13] Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will [desire] of man, but of God.
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Pope St. Leo the Great.
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Pope St. Leo the Great, Sermon 63: On the Passion (+ c. 460 A.D.): “… from the birth of baptism an unending multitude are born to God, of whom it is said: Who are born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God (Jn. 1:13).” (The Sunday Sermons of the Great Fathers, Vol. 2, p. 151.)
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STOP YOUR OUTRAGEOUS OBSTINANCE.
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See this is what happens when you have no priest, bishop to guide you!  
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 09, 2017, 05:50:36 PM
Silly Pharisede.  :laugh1:
Toast is noisy.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 09, 2017, 05:58:11 PM
You seem to think that I'm required to accept the Pharisede definition of being subject to the Pope. Not gonna happen. I know you think that you're superior to all non-Sedes, but you're not.

:jester:

You are not subject to the current Pope. Therefore you deny the dogma. Simple.
Simple.

Yup.

Window licking, short-bus riding, flat-earth believing, breeding siblings simple.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 09, 2017, 06:01:06 PM
The dogma that we are required to be subject to the Pope doesn't not give a qualificaton of being able to choose as to whether or not a Pope is a true Pope. We aren't given a choice. The dogma says nothing about that at all. And the dogma does not refer to an interregnum.
Stubborn in drag; sleep hates me.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 06:09:05 PM
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What?  We should then, listen to women!??
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Can you even go to the bathroom by yourself, without being guided!??
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Just listen to HOLY MOTHER CHURCH.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 09, 2017, 06:20:45 PM
Stubborn in drag; sleep hates me.
That is so funny had to give in and give you a thumb up, in spite of!
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 10, 2017, 04:41:55 AM
Stubborn, don’t forget that when Bergoglio dies will we be together in the same boat until the heretics elect a new heresiarch.
Sorry RS, at first I was going to agree, but I'm afraid we'll remain in different boats even during that period of time, for I will be in the boat with other Catholics living during the period of sede vacante only until the next pope is elected, but you will still be a sedevacantist, floating away in your own boat along with DZ, Freedom, AES and other sedevacantists, none of whom want anything to do with being in the boat that I am in.

Always remember, sedevacantists have no pope and they will never have a pope, nor do they have any means whatsoever of ever having a pope. Remember, the sedes have gone to great lengths to guarantee that there will never be any possibility of  them ever having a pope.

Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 04:44:05 AM
Stubbstein's getting an early start on "Gefilite Friday".
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 10, 2017, 04:48:26 AM
^^^^Peanut brain gallery.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 04:51:22 AM
^^^^Peanut brain gallery.
Self-hating no less; guess he's feeling a little snippy.

Maybe the rabbi will kiss it and make it better.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 10, 2017, 05:48:33 AM
This thread is a perfect example of a food fight. Except for like 3-4 postings, everything posted in the 5 pages after my OP has nothing to do with the OP. Someone mentions baptism of desire of the catechumen, which has nothing to do with the thread and another one about the sede position in general and  then from there starts a food fight about personal issues between the posters.

My OP is not a big deal, but if the OP were a really  important teaching, it would have been totally obscured by the chaff that comes afterwards, ALL from unfocused  minds whether purposeful to obscure, or done unknowingly.

Here’s my advice from years of experience, stay focused on the subject, ignore personal attacks against you. Do not respond to postings that have nothing to do with the subject of the OP. Do not respond to women who debate (No problem answering the ladies who ask questions sincerely). Some men debate like women, taking everything personal, do not let them get your goat, they are like children. Would you debate with a child?
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 06:53:12 AM
This thread is a perfect example of a food fight. Except for like 3-4 postings, everything posted in the 5 pages after my OP has nothing to do with the OP. Someone mentions baptism of desire of the catechumen, which has nothing to do with the thread and another one about the sede position in general and  then from there starts a food fight about personal issues between the posters.

My OP is not a big deal, but if the OP were a really  important teaching, it would have been totally obscured by the chaff that comes afterwards, ALL from unfocused  minds whether purposeful to obscure, or done unknowingly.

Here’s my advice from years of experience, stay focused on the subject, ignore personal attacks against you. Do not respond to postings that have nothing to do with the subject of the OP. Do not respond to women who debate (No problem answering the ladies who ask questions sincerely). Some men debate like women, taking everything personal, do not let them get your goat, they are like children. Would you debate with a child?
What did you expect man? The OP was why you don't do a thing. You said that thing. Done.

Seriously, what did you expect? What did you want?

Hey, here's a OP. "Why I don't eat Flan."

"I don't like it"

Well, super.

But let's say you had an actual debate topic, kind of like CI is alleged to be for, but never will be.

Without moderation, we're kidding ourselves, and you're having a very short and selective memory, or can we not find you throwing stones in your own glass house?

Seriously, what was anyone supposed to say in response to you? What were you looking for?

You don't want us to respond to women, or food fighting?

You, from the OP ".their "theological analysis"..."

YOU, start spraying and praying the rounds with things like that and then girly Jєωgripe "why are we fighting?", "Oh, the foodfight!"

You threw the first flipping tray, and then you bitch.

Classic.


Mr. Alinsky, is that you?
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Last Tradhican on November 10, 2017, 07:17:56 AM
I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically docuмented teaching in the Church?
That is the subject. Possible discussions would have been:

The sede group  I belong to does not teach salvation without belief in the Incarnation (Christ) and the Holy Trinity
the SSPX is right, people can be saved in other religions, Abp. Lefevbre said so.
One can be saved by Implicit desire for baptism by their belief in a God that rewards, implicitly they believe in Christ, which does not go against the Athanasian Creed.
Our current sede situation is not unprecedented and it is as doctrinally defined as EENS
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 07:46:29 AM
That is the subject. Possible discussions would have been:

The sede group  I belong to does not teach salvation without belief in the Incarnation (Christ) and the Holy Trinity
the SSPX is right, people can be saved in other religions, Abp. Lefevbre said so.
One can be saved by Implicit desire for baptism by their belief in a God that rewards, implicitly they believe in Christ, which does not go against the Athanasian Creed.
Our current sede situation is not unprecedented and it is as doctrinally defined as EENS
Great, then if you want a less stupid thread, pick one, and frame it "yeah" or "nay", pro or con. 

It'll still derail, but it'll be less muddy, easier to track, and instead of inclining responses towards chaos by introducing distinct, and so extraneous, things you'll have, one step at a time, exactly one point to be addressed, that isn't framed as "i prefer this", which is an invitation to "okay" or "whatever".

You post it, you're framing it. If you don't want a certain tone, then don't set that tone. 

Take too many big bites, and you end up with a pile of puke. Smallest bites, esp. where there is no moderation, is safer. 
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 10, 2017, 07:51:16 AM
Sorry RS, at first I was going to agree, but I'm afraid we'll remain in different boats even during that period of time, for I will be in the boat with other Catholics living during the period of sede vacante only until the next pope is elected, but you will still be a sedevacantist, floating away in your own boat along with DZ, Freedom, AES and other sedevacantists, none of whom want anything to do with being in the boat that I am in.

Always remember, sedevacantists have no pope and they will never have a pope, nor do they have any means whatsoever of ever having a pope. Remember, the sedes have gone to great lengths to guarantee that there will never be any possibility of  them ever having a pope.
You are wrong, again. If Bergoglio converted (100%) tomorrow, I WOULD accept him as a true pope due to the principle of acclamation.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 10, 2017, 09:19:15 AM
You are wrong, again. If Bergoglio converted (100%) tomorrow, I WOULD accept him as a true pope due to the principle of acclamation.
As I said, the sedes have gone to great lengths to guarantee that there will never be any possibility of  them ever having a pope.

You make the pope's election, and I mean any and every pope's election useless, that is, unless and until he / his conversion first passes your own private scrutinization, but that's not yet enough, because you then include that everyone else must agree with your scrutinization as an additional condition. That is what you are saying.

Like I said, sedes can never, not ever have a pope - period, which is what keeps us in separate boats.  
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 10, 2017, 09:50:38 AM
As I said, the sedes have gone to great lengths to guarantee that there will never be any possibility of  them ever having a pope.

You make the pope's election, and I mean any and every pope's election useless, that is, unless and until he / his conversion first passes your own private scrutinization, but that's not yet enough, because you then include that everyone else must agree with your scrutinization as an additional condition. That is what you are saying.

Like I said, sedes can never, not ever have a pope - period, which is what keeps us in separate boats.  
Please don't put ALL Roman Catholics who profess the sedevacantist position in the same category as those who are united to the group that calls themselves Most Holy Family Monastery. 
Read this small thread, you must have missed it:  https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/i-pray-i-live-long-enough-to-hear-these-words-repeated/
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 10, 2017, 09:57:44 AM
Please don't put ALL Roman Catholics who profess the sedevacantist position in the same category as those who are united to the group that calls themselves Most Holy Family Monastery.
Read this small thread, you must have missed it:  https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/i-pray-i-live-long-enough-to-hear-these-words-repeated/
I don't put Roman Catholics in the same category as dogmatic sedes at all. In this regard I agree with Fr. Jenkins - who is a sede himself, I would think the non-dogmatic sedes here should also agree with him. The link should start right at the right spot, if not, just watch 20 seconds of him, from 24:20 till 24:45.
https://youtu.be/H633jb0YX2c?t=1459 (https://youtu.be/H633jb0YX2c?t=1459)
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 10, 2017, 10:10:54 AM
As I understand the word "dogmatic sedes "  I am not, nor is C.M.R.I. I know this because they offer sacraments to those who believe the chair is not empty.  

We hold to the sedevacantist position but we do not teach that if YOU do not hold to the sedevacantist position you are damned.  That is the Most Holy Family Monastery way.   They will not accept a priest, Bishop and Heavens they will never accept a True Pope.  Their fear is a True pope will definitely show them the errors of their thinking.  
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 10:13:41 AM
... if YOU do not hold to the sedevacantist position you are damned.  That is the Most Holy Family Monastery way.

>> LIAR

  They will not accept a priest, Bishop and Heavens they will never accept a True Pope.

>> LIAR

  Their fear is a True pope will definitely show them the errors of their thinking.  

>> MIND READING
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: MyrnaM on November 10, 2017, 12:03:09 PM


Your comrade in crime posted "we will be waiting in vain", go read it!  

His reply here: https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/i-pray-i-live-long-enough-to-hear-these-words-repeated/ (https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/i-pray-i-live-long-enough-to-hear-these-words-repeated/)
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 01:07:47 PM
I've had "comrades in arms" assert many things, which is irrelevant to another HABITUALLY POSTING LIES.
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Recusant Sede on November 10, 2017, 02:43:40 PM
As I understand the word "dogmatic sedes "  I am not, nor is C.M.R.I. I know this because they offer sacraments to those who believe the chair is not empty.  

We hold to the sedevacantist position but we do not teach that if YOU do not hold to the sedevacantist position you are damned.  That is the Most Holy Family Monastery way.   They will not accept a priest, Bishop and Heavens they will never accept a True Pope.  Their fear is a True pope will definitely show them the errors of their thinking.  
:applause:
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 10, 2017, 03:00:59 PM
Stubborn, try to understand...A non-Catholic (heretic) is not a member of the Church and thus CAN'T be the head of the Church. Why is that hard for you to get?
I get it just fine. It is the dogmatic sedes who don't get that it is not their place nor they do not have the authority to claim popes are heretics therefore not a member of the Church, nor on that account that they are not popes. The whole idea that anyone can say such things is inherently anarchistic, anti-Catholic. Which is why we will remain on separate boats. You with the sedes, me with the Catholics. 

Sedevacantist fr. Jenkins explained it perfectly in 20 seconds in the video I posted earlier. 
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 03:05:29 PM
(http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/44/06/70/9465407/7/920x920.jpg)
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: DZ PLEASE on November 10, 2017, 03:05:57 PM
(http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/44/06/70/9465407/7/920x920.jpg)
"Catholics"
Title: Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
Post by: Stubborn on November 10, 2017, 03:17:00 PM
RS, do you really think I want to be or even belong in the same boat as ^^^^?