Author Topic: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position  (Read 2927 times)

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Offline Last Tradhican

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Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
« on: November 06, 2017, 02:44:33 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 03:02:37 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX.

    If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis," how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.
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    You have expressed well something I have thought in roughly the same terms but never put it to words. Thank you.
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    Offline Last Tradhican

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 03:28:24 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes groups and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.
    I now underlined groups in the first part and added groups to the second part to make it super clear. The MHFM for instance is sede and believes in EENS as it is written, but the Dimond's are not a sede group, they do not have a seminary, priests and bishops.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 03:49:48 PM »
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  • Well ain’t that something!

     Neil, L.T., the Dimond bros., and a few other homemade theologians know more than All the Saints, Canonists, theologians, Popes, Bishops for over the last 400 years combined!*

    Pride comes before the fall.

    *This does not mean that BOD was not believed from the very foundations of the Church.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 03:52:11 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all...

    >>> No, they don't; so, next?

    ...
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #5 on: November 06, 2017, 03:54:30 PM »
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  • That's not an argument.
    I know, you know more than Saint Alphonsus, right?

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #6 on: November 06, 2017, 03:56:13 PM »
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  • There's a horrible tendency among Catholics to resort to appeals to authority and ad hominems, and by appeals to authority I do not mean valid references ot infallible teachings.
    You bet I will appeal to authority, especially when they are unanimous.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 03:59:10 PM »
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  • I now underlined groups in the first part and added groups to the second part to make it super clear. The MHFM for instance is sede and believes in EENS as it is written, but the Dimond's are not a sede group, they do not have a seminary, priests and bishops.
    And people who don't back-peddle into excuse are already "super clear" because they don't play word games like retro-fitting meaning to a word or phrase instead of just admitting to an error of expression.

    Learn to think or to not lie, whichever it is.
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 04:09:47 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.
    Good on you.

    I OTOH saw Fr. Sanborn go from a young, holy priest and powerful speaker, zealous for souls Catholic priest, to a raging pope denying sedevacantist in what seemed like under 3 months. I often picture his young face, snarled in an inordinate rage when he was slamming the pope from the pulpit trying to convince the faithful that Pope Paul VI was not the pope, when debating the sedes here.
     
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 04:31:38 PM »
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  • I also know that St. Alphonsus claimed that Trent teaches that men can be justified by "desire", which it doesn't.  See here, though again I don;t expect you to be able to actually follow and address an argument as to the turth opf its premises or valdity of its deductive steps, only attacking its conclusion with vagues statements abotu unanimity about something. https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/dogma-gt-desire-and-laver-of-regeneration-cannot-be-separated/msg577508/#msg577508
    You do realize that even Father Feeney didn’t reject the dogmatic teaching that one can be justified by desire? 

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #10 on: November 06, 2017, 04:34:13 PM »
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  • Good on you.

    I OTOH saw Fr. Sanborn go from a young, holy priest and powerful speaker, zealous for souls Catholic priest, to a raging pope denying sedevacantist in what seemed like under 3 months. I often picture his young face, snarled in an inordinate rage when he was slamming the pope from the pulpit trying to convince the faithful that Pope Paul VI was not the pope, when debating the sedes here.
     
    And you have such kind words for your admittedly heretical pope......


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #11 on: November 06, 2017, 04:36:06 PM »
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  • And you have such kind words for your admittedly heretical pope......
    He's your pope too, but looks like you'll find that out the hard way.
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline MyrnaM

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 05:27:27 PM »
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  • Quote
     since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.


    And isn't it strange that those who don't understand EENS and make it the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church, but still regard Francis as their pope, and Francis is the biggest teacher that EENS does not apply to Catholics?  

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 08:19:48 PM »
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  • I haven't said anything to the contrary, though I don't care what Father Feeney did or did not teach.  I haven't even stated my position on BOD. What I have stated is that the only passage in Trent to mention "desire" in this context does not teach that this "desire" is a sufficient condition for justification to be effected. But again, I'm fairly certain given your showing thus far that you can't even grasp the simple logical truth that a propositional expression of the form (¬P⇒¬Q)⇒(P⇒Q) is not logically valid, i.e., necessity does not imply sufficiency, because in parctice you refuse to even consider arguments. But of course you don't, since "implicit desire" style BOD advocates are proposing something in direct and explicit contradition to plain meaning of scripture and formal definitions of the extraordinary magisterium and for which there is no evidence of its existence in divine revelation, so that they have to take a few quotations from orthodox theologians almost exlucisvely on catechumens, twist them out of all context to fit their own ideas through ye olde fallacy of equivocation, and, present this "salvation for those who die as Jews, pagans, etc." as magisterial under, to paraphrase Vatican I, the specious notion of a "deeper understanding", born not of anything in divine revelation but based entirely upon a "theological argument" from ideas about God's mercy: you NEVER consider arguments but just cut-and-paste bomb others like Protestants, only replacing infallible though misnterpreted scripture with fallible writings that directly contradict only-to-be-read-literally formal definitions of the extradorinary magisterium when understood in your proposed sense, then shouting things like "unanimous opinion" or, if a Novus Ordo cultist, "The CCC says!". Yeah,  the  unanimous opinion of theologians that the unanimous opinion of theologians is infallible in declaring what the unanimous opinion of theologians is - where that middle one is in practice the opinion of anti-EENS theologians writing after the birth of modernism - did I get that bit of logical merry-go-round-riding correct?

    Incidentally, this is the same St. Alphonsus who states that:


    “See also the special love which God has shown you in bringing you into life in a Christian country, and in the bosom of the Catholic or true Church. How many are born among the pagans, among the Jews, among the Mohometans and heretics, and all are lost.” (Sermons of St. Alphonsus Liguori, Tan Books, 1982, p. 219.)

    “‘Some theologians hold that the belief of the two other articles – the Incarnation of the Son of God, and the Trinity of Persons – is strictly commanded but not necessary, as a means without which salvation is impossible; so that a person inculpably ignorant of them may be saved. But according to the more common and truer opinion, the explicit belief of these articles is necessary as a means without which no adult can be saved.’ (First Command. No. 8.).”

    “Still we answer the Semipelagians, and say, that infidels who arrive at the use of reason, and are not converted to the Faith, cannot be excused, because though they do not receive sufficient proximate grace, still they are not deprived of remote grace, as a means of becoming converted.  But what is this remote grace?  St. Thomas explains it, when he says, that if anyone was brought up in the wilds, or even among brute beasts, and if he followed the law of natural reason, to desire what is good, and to avoid what is wicked, we should certainly believe either that God, by an internal inspiration, would reveal to him what he should believe, or would send someone to preach the Faith to him, as he sent Peter to Cornelius.  Thus, then, according to the Angelic Doctor [St. Thomas], God, at least remotely, gives to infidels, who have the use of reason, sufficient grace to obtain salvation, and this grace consists in a certain instruction of the mind, and in a movement of the will, to observe the natural law; and if the infidel cooperates with this movement, observing the precepts of the law of nature, and abstaining from grievous sins, he will certainly receive, through the merits of Jesus Christ, the grace proximately sufficient to embrace the Faith, and save his soul.” (The History of Heresies, Refutation 6, #11, p. 457)


    So if you're claiming that St. Alphonsus taught that people who died without the Christian faith could be saved by some baptism of "implicit desire", you're a liar. And how could he have when the Athanasian creed says explicictly that "WHOSOEVER WISHES/WILLS/DESIRES (volunt) TO BE SAVED, it is before all things necessary that he hold the Catholic Faith", so that even if we assume BOD to be possible, one who did have merely "DESIRE" would STILL HAVE TO have FAITH in the Trinity and Incarnation.
    The sad part is that you think you know something because you read a couple of books by Fred and Bob Dimond. Remember these words, kid and meditate on them.......pride comes before the fall.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 08:26:07 PM »
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  • The sad part is that you think you know something because you read a couple of books by Fred and Bob Dimond. Remember these words, kid and meditate on them.......pride comes before the fall.

    Look in the mirror.

     

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