Author Topic: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position  (Read 2598 times)

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Online Last Tradhican

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Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
« on: November 06, 2017, 02:44:33 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #1 on: November 06, 2017, 03:02:37 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX.

    If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis," how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.
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    You have expressed well something I have thought in roughly the same terms but never put it to words. Thank you.
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    Online Last Tradhican

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #2 on: November 06, 2017, 03:28:24 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes groups and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.
    I now underlined groups in the first part and added groups to the second part to make it super clear. The MHFM for instance is sede and believes in EENS as it is written, but the Dimond's are not a sede group, they do not have a seminary, priests and bishops.
    The Vatican II church - Assisting Souls to Hell Since 1962

    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. Mat 24:24

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #3 on: November 06, 2017, 03:49:48 PM »
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  • Well ain’t that something!

     Neil, L.T., the Dimond bros., and a few other homemade theologians know more than All the Saints, Canonists, theologians, Popes, Bishops for over the last 400 years combined!*

    Pride comes before the fall.

    *This does not mean that BOD was not believed from the very foundations of the Church.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #4 on: November 06, 2017, 03:52:11 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all...

    >>> No, they don't; so, next?

    ...
    "Lord, have mercy".


    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #5 on: November 06, 2017, 03:52:16 PM »
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  • Well ain’t that something! Neil, L.T., the Dimond bros., and a few other homemade theologians know more than All the Saints, Canonists, theologians, Popes, Bishops for over 400 years combined!

    Pride comes before the fall.

    That's not an argument.

    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #6 on: November 06, 2017, 03:53:47 PM »
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  • There's a horrible tendency among Catholics to resort to appeals to authority and ad hominems, and by appeals to authority I do not mean valid references ot infallible teachings.

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #7 on: November 06, 2017, 03:54:30 PM »
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  • That's not an argument.
    I know, you know more than Saint Alphonsus, right?


    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #8 on: November 06, 2017, 03:56:13 PM »
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  • There's a horrible tendency among Catholics to resort to appeals to authority and ad hominems, and by appeals to authority I do not mean valid references ot infallible teachings.
    You bet I will appeal to authority, especially when they are unanimous.

    Offline DZ PLEASE

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #9 on: November 06, 2017, 03:59:10 PM »
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  • I now underlined groups in the first part and added groups to the second part to make it super clear. The MHFM for instance is sede and believes in EENS as it is written, but the Dimond's are not a sede group, they do not have a seminary, priests and bishops.
    And people who don't back-peddle into excuse are already "super clear" because they don't play word games like retro-fitting meaning to a word or phrase instead of just admitting to an error of expression.

    Learn to think or to not lie, whichever it is.
    "Lord, have mercy".

    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #10 on: November 06, 2017, 04:04:27 PM »
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  • You bet I will appeal to authority, especially when they are unanimous.
    I also know that St. Alphonsus claimed that Trent teaches that men can be justified by "desire", which it doesn't.  See here, though again I don;t expect you to be able to actually follow and address an argument as to the turth opf its premises or valdity of its deductive steps, only attacking its conclusion with vagues statements abotu unanimity about something. https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/dogma-gt-desire-and-laver-of-regeneration-cannot-be-separated/msg577508/#msg577508


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #11 on: November 06, 2017, 04:09:47 PM »
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  • With regard to the sede position, I came back to the Church when I was older, at that time I really didn't know anything about the Faith. I read profusely for years and almost from the beginning, concluded that JPII was a punishment from God and I told people that. However, I have never pushed the sede position on anyone mainly because all the sede groups teach that anyone can be saved without baptism and Christ in any way shape or form. Same goes for the SSPX. If the sedes and SSPX came to the conclusion that say the dogmatic Athanasian Creed means the complete opposite of what it says by their "theological analysis" , how can I believe them on the sede position, since our current situation is unprecedented while EENS is likely the most dogmatically documented teaching in the Church.
    Good on you.

    I OTOH saw Fr. Sanborn go from a young, holy priest and powerful speaker, zealous for souls Catholic priest, to a raging pope denying sedevacantist in what seemed like under 3 months. I often picture his young face, snarled in an inordinate rage when he was slamming the pope from the pulpit trying to convince the faithful that Pope Paul VI was not the pope, when debating the sedes here.
     
    I say that it is licit to resist the Roman Pontiff by not doing what he orders and by impeding the execution of his will; it is not licit, however, to judge, punish or depose him, since these are acts proper to a superior." St. Robert Bellarmine

    Offline Kreuzritter

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #12 on: November 06, 2017, 04:09:58 PM »
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  • I can accept debate about BOD for catechumens and BOB for martyrs.

    But I cannot accept anyone who claims that salvation is possible without explicit faith in the Trinity and Incarnation as anything but a dullard, a weasel and an apostate, nor anyone who claims that such a thing as baptism of "implicit desire", for those who die as apostates in denial or ignorance of Christ (which all jews, Muslims, pagans and atheists are), is anywhere to be found in divine revelation, either cotained in the scriptures or in apostolic tradition, as anything but a damned liar too.

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #13 on: November 06, 2017, 04:31:38 PM »
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  • I also know that St. Alphonsus claimed that Trent teaches that men can be justified by "desire", which it doesn't.  See here, though again I don;t expect you to be able to actually follow and address an argument as to the turth opf its premises or valdity of its deductive steps, only attacking its conclusion with vagues statements abotu unanimity about something. https://www.cathinfo.com/crisis-in-the-church/dogma-gt-desire-and-laver-of-regeneration-cannot-be-separated/msg577508/#msg577508
    You do realize that even Father Feeney didn’t reject the dogmatic teaching that one can be justified by desire? 

    Offline Recusant Sede

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    Re: Why I Do Not Push the Sede Position
    « Reply #14 on: November 06, 2017, 04:34:13 PM »
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  • Good on you.

    I OTOH saw Fr. Sanborn go from a young, holy priest and powerful speaker, zealous for souls Catholic priest, to a raging pope denying sedevacantist in what seemed like under 3 months. I often picture his young face, snarled in an inordinate rage when he was slamming the pope from the pulpit trying to convince the faithful that Pope Paul VI was not the pope, when debating the sedes here.
     
    And you have such kind words for your admittedly heretical pope......

     

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