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Author Topic: Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?  (Read 6727 times)

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Offline Truth is Eternal

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Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
« on: March 31, 2014, 10:24:21 AM »
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    • What will happen if we find out Father Feeney was right? Will many Traditional Catholics wish to crucify Christ?

    Can Heretics who attach innovation to any defined dogma of The Church claim invincible ignorance?

    Is any innovation to defined Catholic Dogma worth the price of damnation?
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    Offline crossbro

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #1 on: March 31, 2014, 10:37:17 AM »
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    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”


    You mean for instance, like in the above quote ?
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    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #2 on: March 31, 2014, 10:55:25 AM »
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    • Quote from: crossbro
    Quote
    Pope Paul III, The Council of Trent, Sess. 7, Can. 5 on the Sacrament of Baptism, ex cathedra: “If anyone says that baptism [the Sacrament] is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation (cf. Jn. 3:5): let him be anathema.”


    You mean for instance, like in the above quote ?


    Yes.
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    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #3 on: March 31, 2014, 10:56:28 AM »
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    • Quote from: Truth is Eternal
    1. What will happen if we find out Father Feeney was right?

    2. Will many Traditional Catholics wish to crucify Christ?

    3. Can Heretics who attach innovation to any defined dogma of The Church claim invincible ignorance?

    4. Is any innovation to defined Catholic Dogma worth the price of damnation?


    1. The true heretics will be exposed by their perseverance in their error, but the sincere will gladly change their position.

    2. There have always been CINOs and there always will be until the end of time.

    3. They can, but how they'll be judged is not for me to decide.

    4. Not to me.

    For the record, I will accept a future definitive declaration on EENS even if it contradicts something that Fr. Feeney taught (although I don't see how that's possible).
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #4 on: March 31, 2014, 11:05:51 AM »
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    • You'd first have to show a solemn definition that teaches that not all those who die justified are saved.  This is Fr. Feeney's error proper, the denial of baptism of desire for Catechumens is his followers errors, not his.  His error was believing that BOD justified while also maintaining that those who then died before receiving actual water baptism (though justified by BOD) were reprobate.  

    Until then, no one should worry that Fr. Feeney was right.

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    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #5 on: March 31, 2014, 11:12:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    You'd first have to show a solemn definition that teaches that not all those who die justified are saved.  


    How could it be known that any person was justified but not baptised before their death?
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #6 on: March 31, 2014, 11:16:21 AM »
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    • Quote from: MariaCatherine
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    You'd first have to show a solemn definition that teaches that not all those who die justified are saved.  


    How could it be known that any person was justified but not baptised before their death?


    The same way we know any other truth of the faith-- because the Church teaches it.

    "Let them that have ears hear... He who hears you hears me..."

    Maria Catherine, I'm assuming you would count yourself a follower of Fr. Feeney?

    You DO realize that he believes baptism of desire justified, yes?  So I'm not sure exactly what your point was in asking me the question you did, as it betrays Fr. Feeney's position.  Unless I have mistaken you in being a follower of his teachings.
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    Offline Nishant

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #7 on: March 31, 2014, 11:17:22 AM »
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    • In Sacred Scripture, Cornelius was baptized by desire as a catechumen. So say St. Augustine, St. Thomas, and really, any approved commentary on that passage.

    Quote from: Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life
    Q. What does “Baptism of Desire” mean?
    A. It means the belief in the necessity of Baptism of Water for salvation, and a full intent to receive it.
    Q. Can “Baptism of Desire” save you?
    A. Never.
    Q. Could “Baptism of Desire” save you if you really believed it could?
    A. It could not.
    Q. Could it possibly suffice for you to pass into a state of justification?
    A. It could.
    Q. If you got into the state of justification with the aid of “Baptism of Desire,” and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved?
    A. Never.


    This is quite false, because Trent says (and really, basic logic tells us,) that all who die justified i.e. in the state of grace will be saved.
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    Offline MariaCatherine

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #8 on: March 31, 2014, 11:27:31 AM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    You DO realize that he believes baptism of desire justified, yes?  So I'm not sure exactly what your point was in asking me the question you did, as it betrays Fr. Feeney's position.  Unless I have mistaken you in being a follower of his teachings.


    I DO realize.

    My question betrays Fr. Feeney's position on what? Did he not teach that justification is not the same as salvation? Did he teach that bod is salvific without sacramental baptism?
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    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #9 on: March 31, 2014, 11:28:15 AM »
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    • Quote from: Nishant
    In Sacred Scripture, Cornelius was baptized by desire as a catechumen. So say St. Augustine, St. Thomas, and really, any approved commentary on that passage.

    Quote from: Fr. Feeney, Bread of Life
    Q. What does “Baptism of Desire” mean?
    A. It means the belief in the necessity of Baptism of Water for salvation, and a full intent to receive it.
    Q. Can “Baptism of Desire” save you?
    A. Never.
    Q. Could “Baptism of Desire” save you if you really believed it could?
    A. It could not.
    Q. Could it possibly suffice for you to pass into a state of justification?
    A. It could.
    Q. If you got into the state of justification with the aid of “Baptism of Desire,” and then failed to receive Baptism of Water, could you be saved?
    A. Never.


    This is quite false, because Trent says (and really, basic logic tells us,) that all who die justified i.e. in the state of grace will be saved.


    People who refuse to get baptized were NEVER JUSDTIFIED.
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #10 on: March 31, 2014, 11:52:54 AM »
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    • Catholics are obliged to believe in dogmas as they are written. Pope St. Pius X explicitly condemned the proposition that dogmas are to be understood as figurative symbols. The Church understands her dogmas precisely by the very words she has once declared.  Loyal Catholics must know that Catholic dogmatic statements are immutable truths of Heaven not subject for accommodation to suit the current world needs. Pope Pius X solemnly condemned this method of interpretation employed by Modernists, in which dogmas have a meaning that is different from what the words literally say and mean.

    Catholics should not fall into the modernist error of "interpreting" dogma. Dogmatic statements say what they mean and mean what they say. "Baptism of Desire" is just a mask to hide the real liberal purpose behind it: undermine and frankly total deny the salutary dogma of "Extra Eclessiam Nulla Salus". Fierce adherence to BOD is nothing but an excuse to justify invincible ignorance and universal salvation. Both heretical notions born out of the Modernist devilish trap.

    Modernists will, at least in public, affirm the words of the defined dogmas. However, they will teach a meaning that is different from what the words literally say and mean. This astute and sneaky method allows for an evolution of meaning within a dogma. This absolutely undermines the immutability of divinely revealed truth. It then allows for an actual denial of the dogma as the Church has always understood it and taught it.

    There is not a single infallible statement on BOD. Trent never taught BOD and actually anathemized those who believe that Baptism is optional and the Sacraments superfluous and not absolutely needed for Salvation.  
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #11 on: March 31, 2014, 12:05:28 PM »
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    • Quote from: Nishant

    This is quite false, because Trent says (and really, basic logic tells us,) that all who die justified i.e. in the state of grace will be saved.


    Yes, but Baptism is the seal of Justification. Trent CLEARLY teaches that BOTH the water (Sacrament) AND the proper disposition (Votum) are required for justification.  Without BOTH there is simply no justification.
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    Offline Mithrandylan

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 12:08:01 PM »
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    • Quote from: MariaCatherine
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    You DO realize that he believes baptism of desire justified, yes?  So I'm not sure exactly what your point was in asking me the question you did, as it betrays Fr. Feeney's position.  Unless I have mistaken you in being a follower of his teachings.


    I DO realize.

    My question betrays Fr. Feeney's position on what? Did he not teach that justification is not the same as salvation? Did he teach that bod is salvific without sacramental baptism?


    I can see this is going nowhere quickly.

    All those who died justified are in Heaven.  They are not the same thing (being saved and being justified) but the former is THE prerequisite to the latter.  A person who is at their door and is moving the key toward the keyhole is not yet inside his house, but he has met every prerequisite to open the door (or have the door opened to him as it were).  

    This is not controversial or difficult to understand.  Those who die justified are saved.  Those who do not are not.  If BOD justifies, then one who dies while desiring baptism (which naturally PRECLUDES his not seeking it out) is saved.



     

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    Offline Cantarella

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #13 on: March 31, 2014, 12:18:32 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: MariaCatherine
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    You DO realize that he believes baptism of desire justified, yes?  So I'm not sure exactly what your point was in asking me the question you did, as it betrays Fr. Feeney's position.  Unless I have mistaken you in being a follower of his teachings.


    I DO realize.

    My question betrays Fr. Feeney's position on what? Did he not teach that justification is not the same as salvation? Did he teach that bod is salvific without sacramental baptism?


    I can see this is going nowhere quickly.

    All those who died justified are in Heaven.  They are not the same thing (being saved and being justified) but the former is THE prerequisite to the latter.  A person who is at their door and is moving the key toward the keyhole is not yet inside his house, but he has met every prerequisite to open the door (or have the door opened to him as it were).  

    This is not controversial or difficult to understand.  Those who die justified are saved.  Those who do not are not.  If BOD justifies, then one who dies while desiring baptism (which naturally PRECLUDES his not seeking it out) is saved.



    BOD does not justify  :fryingpan:. In order to be justified, you need to be baptized. Again, in order to be justified, you need to be baptized. For the justification to occur both elements must be present.

    It is indeed very simple, a 5 year old can grasp it.

    There is absolutely no salvation for any human being outside actual baptized membership in the Roman Catholic Church.

    Truth never changes.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Truth is Eternal

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    Why Does The Church Attach Anathema to any Innovation of a Defined Dogma?
    « Reply #14 on: March 31, 2014, 12:30:27 PM »
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    • Quote from: Mithrandylan
    Quote from: MariaCatherine
    Quote from: Mithrandylan
    You DO realize that he believes baptism of desire justified, yes?  So I'm not sure exactly what your point was in asking me the question you did, as it betrays Fr. Feeney's position.  Unless I have mistaken you in being a follower of his teachings.


    I DO realize.

    My question betrays Fr. Feeney's position on what? Did he not teach that justification is not the same as salvation? Did he teach that bod is salvific without sacramental baptism?


    I can see this is going nowhere quickly.

    All those who died justified are in Heaven.  They are not the same thing (being saved and being justified) but the former is THE prerequisite to the latter.  A person who is at their door and is moving the key toward the keyhole is not yet inside his house, but he has met every prerequisite to open the door (or have the door opened to him as it were).  

    This is not controversial or difficult to understand.  Those who die justified are saved.  Those who do not are not.  If BOD justifies, then one who dies while desiring baptism (which naturally PRECLUDES his not seeking it out) is saved.



     



    If someone desires to get baptized, they WILL GET BAPTIZED.

    A PERSON DOES NOT GET JUSTIFIED BY REFUSING TO GET BAPTIZED.
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