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You see, it's not a matter of Sedevacantists being unimpressive: What is TRULY unimpressive is how little the Sedeplenists even THINK through their own positions! They don't take into account necessary conclusions at all. They are a bunch of knee-jerk response victims who just claim, with audacity, that "God wouldn't let this happen."

This is wildly funny, because I think the same thing about sedevacantists!

It falls to this, again:

Either Christ is a Chaotic, self-contradicting author of heresy and apostasy,

OR the one who claims to be one in authority with him is actually severed from him.

That's all there is. There are no more options, you're out of them.

That's it, eh?  You've got God's options all figured out, I suppose?  How bold of you to presume that you know about God's limitations in this matter!  Clearly, you believe you have this Crisis figured out, and you know exactly what God has limited Himself to.  

Although, Lucifer once thought the same thing.

The problem is theological, therefore it must be dealt with theologically.

Again, present an alternative. These People you are calling Popes cannot be such because they are not Catholic. They have enacted and promulgated heresies and errors.

Is Christ the author of those things or not? Is Christ the author of the Novus Ordo mass or not?

Name a solution that doesn't make Christ responsible for heresy and schism (The complete remaking of the rites of the Church IS an act of schism according to Cardinal Torquemada).

Well?

"Well?"  So deliciously pompous!  I was just relating to a friend today about how it could be the case that it is sedes and their attitudes that give Traditionalist Catholics a bad name.  The same folks who provide the cannon fodder for people like those at CAF, Crux, or other bloggers who I have recently engaged with.  Such people attack all of the Traditional Catholics as if it is your mania that represents us all.  Because your mania is the loudest.  

"Well?"  Well, well!

The Latin Mass has been developed for a long time.  But then, all of the constructive developments were stripped away and replaced with novelties by Bugini and his six protestants.  

The Sacrifice we witness at a Novus Ordo Mass is very much these days like the Sacrifice of Christ, Himself.  Just as the Roman soldiers mocked and abused Him, so to do people at these Masses.  

But Christ's mother and His friends--unlike sedevacantists--endured the atrocity and the insult.  Sedes cannot bear this insult.  They become their own popes out of necessity, as the Lutherans have.

Just this year, it has been likely shown (I speak with hesitation) that Christ's body is manifesting in the Eucharist at a Novus Ordo parish.  And, as far as post Vatican II Land is concerned, even just recently I was informed of how Our Lady of Akita occurred in the post VII Church.  In fact, the very parish where Sr. Agnes Sasagawa began to receive the stigmata, people were receiving the Eucharist in their hands.  

I am not defending the Novus Ordo Mass.  But I am telling you that God overpowers it.  He is there.  In the Eucharist.  Your denial of this is a continuous blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, and I do not think there is any saving you from that pit.  

Name a solution that doesn't make Christ responsible for heresy and schism.

I do not need to come up with a solution for Christ's responsibilities.  That is beyond my station.  I am a layman.  And even if I were a pope, that would still be beyond my station.  I will trust that God knows what He is doing.  And I will trust in His One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.  

I will not pretend to be my own private little pope who has to deal with this issue.  

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After making this post, below, I found something interesting:
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Quote from: Neil Obstat

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Quote from: LucasL

I don't really understand why there's so much hate between sedevacantist and people on the resistance. It's not humanly sane to attack each other in things that are not 100% certain. There are good theologians in both sides, there're Church teachings on both sides. It's far beyond me why this is happening.

Let's use the example of the Dimond Brothers. They call "an abomination" one that does not hold the sedevacante position. It's doing more harm than good, even though they have great material on their website. But this violent approach is doing more harm than good and it's not sane to do it.

It seems to me there's a lot of truth in this post, although the word "hate" might be a bit extreme.  I'd say "passionate disagreement" or "nearly doctrinal opposition."

But the effect might be close to the same inasmuch as outside observers often get the impression that it's hate.  "You'll know they are Christians by their love" is not very evident in consideration of the in-fighting.  Most people don't take comfort in quarrels especially when they don't have a dog in the fight.

The post above is followed by this signature:

Quote

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Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, ex cathedra: "Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity."

This dogma ought to be recognized as what is equated with EENS, that is, that being outside the Church is meant to signify not holding the Catholic faith.  

And the present crisis in the Church can be reduced to a current worldwide confusion as to what constitutes the Catholic faith, and therefore what it means to be outside the Church;  not to mention the public impression that the Church does not teach extra ecclesisam nulla salus, if one is even aware that the Church ever DID teach that.

When you try to explain to non-Catholics that the true teaching of the Church cannot change over time, you simply lose their attention because that's not part of their subjective reality.  They think you must be making it up.

When people would reasonably think that the current pope ought to give an easily recognizable example and teaching of what the Church teaches, what the Catholic faith is and what it means to be in the Church, these days it's a real challenge to put that all together, for it would seem by reading the news that the Catholic faith must mean concern for youth unemployment and climate change, a high regard for   subjective experience   and putting the world's OTHER religions on par with your own as the means for world peace.

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I found the following post made a bit after the one that I quoted above:
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Quote from: 2Vermont

Quote from: irirfleo

I don't really understand why there's so much hate between sedevacantist and people on the resistance. It's not humanly sane to attack each other in things that are not 100% certain. There are good theologians in both sides, there're Church teachings on both sides. It's far beyond me why this is happening.

Let's use the example of the Dimond Brothers. They call "an abomination" one that does not hold the sedevacante position. It's doing more harm than good, even though they have great material on their website. But this violent approach is doing more harm than good and it's not sane to do it.

I think there are what you call dogmatic sedevacantists (like the DB's) as well as dogmatic sedeplenists.  Both believe that their opinion is the correct one to the point of calling the other non-Catholic, schismatic, heretics, etc.

But not all are like this.  

This post by 2Vermont is then quoted by several other members later in the thread, and none of them observed that irirfleo had not made the post attributed to him.

Now, where did that come from?  I mean, here is 2Vermont saying that irirfleo had originally posted this, but nowhere in this thread is such a post by irirfleo to be found.  Rather, this quoted material is found posted by LucasL, as I have demonstrated above.

This above is a factual example of a sedevacantist posting on CI something that did not happen, and then subsequent sedes posting comments based on the erroneous information without questioning the error.

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Could you please clarify your post?  Are you suggesting that I have made something up here?

With a little bit more investigating, I see that LucasL was banned and there is no such member named irirfleo.  I would argue that something was changed.  I probably quoted LucasL but perhaps something happened after he was banned.