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Author Topic: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?  (Read 7569 times)

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Offline Ladislaus

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Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2018, 08:29:07 AM »
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  • You keep claiming that it is the infallible judgement of the Church that all General Councils are infallible. This leaves us all only two options Cantarella:

    1) V2 is infallible
    2) The Church does not teach that all General Councils are infallible.

    There is no third option.

    :facepalm:

    This stupidity is utterly mind-boggling.  No, the very point of sedevacantism/sedeprivationism is that Vatican II was NOT a legitimate Ecuмenical Council, since it lacked papal approbation, since Paul VI was not a legitimate pope.

    You assume that the V2 Popes are legitimate in order to prove that the V2 Popes are legitimate.

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #61 on: April 10, 2018, 08:32:11 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    This stupidity is utterly mind-boggling.  No, the very point of sedevacantism/sedeprivationism is that Vatican II was NOT a legitimate Ecuмenical Council, since it lacked papal approbation, since Paul VI was not a legitimate pope.

    You assume that the V2 Popes are legitimate in order to prove that the V2 Popes are legitimate.
    The stupidity is all yours for assuming that the V2 popes are illegitimate in order to prove that V2 popes are illegitimate - for no reason at all.  

    Your brain is so washed in sedesim that you cannot even begin to comprehend the most basic facts I posted for Cantarella. Sad.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #62 on: April 10, 2018, 08:43:29 AM »
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  • Cantarella, your contradictions are getting worse.  You are not following the facts towards the truth, but are twisting the facts to support your agenda.

    (1) First, you said that all ecuмenical councils are infallible.  (You repeated this 20x on another thread)

    (2) Then you changed and said that councils are not all infallible, but they require "absolute obedience".  So a non-infallible teaching (i.e. a fallible teaching) can require absolute obedience?  PROVE IT!
    The Traditional teaching of the Church is that Ecunemical Councils require absolute obedience.

    (3) Now, you say that even though they require ABSOLUTE OBEDIENCE, parts of councils can be reversible.  What?!
    Not every single word emanating from a Council is "infallible" simply because there are some teachings that are disciplinary and temporary in nature, and therefore, reversible.

    (4) Now, you also repeat the illogical fallacy that the word "fallible" does not mean "capable of error".  You are supporting the non-infallible infallibility error.  You grant to the pope the power of infallibility even when he does not use this power as outlined in Vatican 1 (and he admits he didn't use it!)
    Non infallible does not mean erroneous.

    (5) You also postulate that V2 should be treated like every other ecuмenical council in history, even though its authors, its intention and its docuмents say otherwise.  You simplisticlly and illogically grant to V2 the same teaching weight as previous ecuмenical councils for the simple reason that it was called 'ecuмenical' and you ignore what the docuмents actually say, you ignore their contradictions and you ignore its lack of authority and requirements.
    General Councils approved by a Pope cannot teach heretical ERROR even if they do not promulgate new dogmatic definitions.


    Anyone who is open to the truth and who is logical can see your contradictions and your agenda.  

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #63 on: April 10, 2018, 09:57:25 AM »
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  • The stupidity is all yours for assuming that the V2 popes are illegitimate in order to prove that V2 popes are illegitimate - for no reason at all.  

    Your brain is so washed in sedesim that you cannot even begin to comprehend the most basic facts I posted for Cantarella. Sad.

    :facepalm:  We're not assuming that the V2 Popes are illegitimate.  We're making an actual argument.

    MAJOR:   Magisterium and Universal Discipline cannot become corrupted.
    MINOR:   V2 Popes' Magisterium and Universal Discipline are corrupt.
    CONCLUSION:  V2 Papal Claimants have not been legitimate popes.

    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #64 on: April 10, 2018, 09:57:44 AM »
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  • Cantarella, your contradictions are getting worse.  You are not following the facts towards the truth, but are twisting the facts to support your agenda.


    Anyone who is open to the truth and who is logical can see your contradictions and your agenda.  

    There are no contradictions except for those with no understanding whatsoever about the differences between dogma, doctrine, and discipline and how these have either perpetual or temporary nature.

    If you see contradictions is because your default position is that non-infallible teachings means error and right to disobedience. By the way, your quote by "Sylvester Berry" has no mention of the required assent for those teachings postulated in the setting of an Ecunemical Council. What was asked was a source referring to this point, the Catholic obedience to General Councils, as opposed to clarifications on the cases where teachings are infallible.

    For those of us who have rejected this mindset, the Denzinger teaching is very clear: Concilia oecuмenica simui cuм Papa ea confirmante quae Universam Ecclesiam repraesentant, docentur Spiritu Sancto... Therefore, teachings from Councils are free from heretical error, regardless if they are dealing with dogmatic issues or disciplinary issues. They cannot teach against the Faith.

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #65 on: April 10, 2018, 10:12:51 AM »
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  • Quote
    Only truths which are consistent with “what has always been taught” are part of the faith.  

    I think that R&R really needs to let go already of the "what has always been taught" argument.

    It has always been taught that General Councils approved by a Pope represent the Universal Church and therefore, have the assistance of the Holy Ghost which prevent them from promulgating error or anything harmful to the faithful.

    Quote
    Concilia oecuмenica simui cuм Papa ea confirmante quae Universam Ecclesiam repraesentant, docentur Spiritu Sancto...

    <<< This is "what has always being taught", yet R&R rejects it.  
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #66 on: April 10, 2018, 10:42:24 AM »
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  • For those of us who have rejected this mindset, the Denzinger teaching is very clear: Concilia oecuмenica simui cuм Papa ea confirmante quae Universam Ecclesiam repraesentant, docentur Spiritu Sancto... Therefore, teachings from Councils are free from heretical error, regardless if they are dealing with dogmatic issues or disciplinary issues. They cannot teach against the Faith.

    Well, then, it sounds like blasphemy against the Holy Spirit to say that an Ecuмenical Council can teach heresy to the Church.  Objectively it is for sure.

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #67 on: April 10, 2018, 11:06:58 AM »
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  • To fix your syllogism, I will add some distinctions, which you refuse to admit exist.

    MAJOR:   The UNIVERSAL/CONSTANT Magisterium and Universal Discipline cannot become corrupted.
    MINOR:   V2 Popes' Magisterium is ordinary/fallible and contrary to the Universal Discipline (i.e. Quo Primum) and both are corrupt.
    CONCLUSION:  V2 Papal Claimants status as legitimate popes is unaffected by the above and their ordinary magisterium is corrupt.

    ---

    Our view is this.  It includes 2 different syllogisms because it is 2 separate issues:

    MAJOR:   The Ordinary Magisterium can become corrupted because it is the teaching of the fallible hierarchy, who can err.
    MINOR:   V2 Popes' Magisterium is not Solemn because it wasn't infallible, nor is it Universal/CONSTANT because it doesn't agree with Tradition.
    CONCLUSION:  V2 Pope's Magisterium is ordinary/fallible and can be corrupted because it was not taught with the infallible 'certainty of faith'.


    MAJOR:   The Universal Discipline cannot become corrupted.
    MINOR:   V2 Popes' new mass/sacraments are contrary to the Universal Discipline of Quo Primum.
    CONCLUSION:  V2 is not part of the Universal Discipline, therefore it can be corrupted.





    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #68 on: April 10, 2018, 11:25:35 AM »
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  • MAJOR:   The UNIVERSAL/CONSTANT Magisterium and Universal Discipline cannot become corrupted.

    Ah, yes, but 99.5% of the Magisterium can be thoroughly corrupted and polluted with error and heresy ... and can lead souls to hell.

    Check.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #69 on: April 10, 2018, 11:28:42 AM »
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  • Our view is this.

    Your view is heresy, and it's blasphemy.  It's not remotely Catholic.

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #70 on: April 10, 2018, 11:30:05 AM »
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  • MINOR:   V2 Popes' Magisterium is ordinary/fallible and contrary to the Universal Discipline (i.e. Quo Primum) and both are corrupt.

    This is nonsense just from a purely grammatical standpoint.  Please stop playing with syllogism lest you hurt yourself.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #71 on: April 10, 2018, 11:52:34 AM »
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  • :facepalm:  We're not assuming that the V2 Popes are illegitimate.  We're making an actual argument.

    MAJOR:   Magisterium and Universal Discipline cannot become corrupted.
    MINOR:   V2 Popes' Magisterium and Universal Discipline are corrupt.
    CONCLUSION:  V2 Papal Claimants have not been legitimate popes.
    I know your making an actual argument - I'm wondering if one day, you'll come to realize that fabricating an actual argument is what you are actually doing.

    The Church's Magisterium is always infallible. Depending on one's opinion of what it even is, the Church's "Universal Discipline" changes, anything that changes is subject to corruption, not infallibility, therefore there is no divine guarantee of infallibility of the Church's "Universal Discipline". So you see, you begin with a false MAJOR and MINOR, which means you end up with a conclusion that is altogether corrupt.     

    I understand even after being corrected numerous times, you still vehemently disagree that your Major and Minor are entirely wrong, but apparently, that's something that you must come to terms with on your own.


     

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #72 on: April 10, 2018, 11:56:18 AM »
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  • :facepalm:

    This stupidity is utterly mind-boggling.  No, the very point of sedevacantism/sedeprivationism is that Vatican II was NOT a legitimate Ecuмenical Council, since it lacked papal approbation, since Paul VI was not a legitimate pope.

    You assume that the V2 Popes are legitimate in order to prove that the V2 Popes are legitimate.
    This is not about stupidity. These folks fully understand the point.    

    Offline Stubborn

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #73 on: April 10, 2018, 12:04:53 PM »
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  • This is not about stupidity. These folks fully understand the point.    
    True, I think that we communicate well enough to demonstrate we have the full understanding of the errors being promoted as if they are teachings of the Church or in some way are acceptable theological speculations.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #74 on: April 10, 2018, 12:11:00 PM »
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  • Quote
    Your view is heresy, and it's blasphemy.  It's not remotely Catholic.
    I would like to point out that Ladislaus has fully entered the ranks of a "dogmatic" sede, wherein he clasifies all "R&R" people (i.e. anyone who isn't a sede) as a heretic.

    He has no room for discussion; it's his view or the highway.  He is essentially calling Matthew and this forum heretical.  Just want to point out his dogmatism and lack of reasonableness.