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Author Topic: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?  (Read 6779 times)

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Offline Pax Vobis

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Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
« Reply #30 on: April 09, 2018, 09:41:16 AM »
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    But if absolutely nothing is being done about a Pope, or in fact a line of Popes, preaching heresies, then a Catholic is forced to use his or her own discretion to avoid following these heresies into damnation.
    Here's your philosophical flaw - you presume that a heretical pope has actual authority to force you into his heresies.  Therefore, it follows (for you) that he must be removed, so that you don't have to follow him anymore.

    The correct view of the papacy is that while the pope rules by "Divine Right" as a monarch, the Church is not his to change, since it is Christ's.  Therefore, the pope's personal heresy is irrelevant to Church teaching, or your personal Faith, in that a pope has no spiritual power to usurp natural law, the 10 commandments or Church doctrine.

    Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, who in the 1920’s formed a group of future prelates and priests who, having been warned by him of the dangers of the Modernist infiltration in the Church, said in 1926:
    "The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility."
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #31 on: April 09, 2018, 09:59:50 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 09, 2018, 09:41:16 AM
    Here's your philosophical flaw - you presume that a heretical pope has actual authority to force you into his heresies.  Therefore, it follows (for you) that he must be removed, so that you don't have to follow him anymore.

    The correct view of the papacy is that while the pope rules by "Divine Right" as a monarch, the Church is not his to change, since it is Christ's.  Therefore, the pope's personal heresy is irrelevant to Church teaching, or your personal Faith, in that a pope has no spiritual power to usurp natural law, the 10 commandments or Church doctrine.

    Fr. Le Floch, superior of the French Seminary in Rome, who in the 1920’s formed a group of future prelates and priests who, having been warned by him of the dangers of the Modernist infiltration in the Church, said in 1926:
    "The heresy which is now being born will become the most dangerous of all; the exaggeration of the respect due to the pope and the illegitimate extension of his infallibility."
    No, that isn't my philosophy or presumption. The fact that a formal heretic ceases to be Pope is just basic Church teaching. 
    The Catholic Encyclopedia, “Heresy,” 1914, Vol. 7, p. 261: “The pope himself, if notoriously guilty of heresy, would cease to be pope because he would cease to be a member of the Church" 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #32 on: April 09, 2018, 10:42:54 AM »
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    • And who decides if the pope is "notoriously guilty of heresy"?  You?  You and 2 people?  You and 10 people?  You and 1,000 people?  2 Bishops?  What if 50% of catholics say he is and 50% say he isn't?

    The pope's status is not matter of public opinion, or canonical proof, but is determined by the Church Authorites alone, that unity may be preserved, which is one of the symbols of the papacy.  Outside of a Church decision, the default position is that the pope holds the chair, no matter the extent of his errors, until the Church tells us otherwise.

    You can quote canon law all day long, or excerpts from theologians til you're blue in the face, but there is NO AUTHORITY given to ANYONE, except Church officials, for deciding this question. 
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #33 on: April 09, 2018, 11:01:46 AM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 09, 2018, 10:42:54 AM
    And who decides if the pope is "notoriously guilty of heresy"?  You?  You and 2 people?  You and 10 people?  You and 1,000 people?  2 Bishops?  What if 50% of catholics say he is and 50% say he isn't?

    Same could be argued about the rejection of decrees promulgated by an Ecunemical Council.
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    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #34 on: April 09, 2018, 11:24:29 AM »
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    • Quote from: Cantarella on April 09, 2018, 11:01:46 AM
    Same could be argued about the rejection of decrees promulgated by an Ecunemical Council.
    but vatican ii explicitly rejected the protection of the Holy Ghost...inventing the novel "pastoral council" instead
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #35 on: April 09, 2018, 11:52:25 AM »
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    Same could be argued about the rejection of decrees promulgated by an Ecunemical Council.
    Also, the very authors, theologians and docuмents themselves all admit that V2 was not infallible, nor was it intended to be.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #36 on: April 09, 2018, 12:04:38 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 09, 2018, 10:42:54 AM
    And who decides if the pope is "notoriously guilty of heresy"?  You?  You and 2 people?  You and 10 people?  You and 1,000 people?  2 Bishops?  What if 50% of catholics say he is and 50% say he isn't?

    The pope's status is not matter of public opinion, or canonical proof, but is determined by the Church Authorites alone, that unity may be preserved, which is one of the symbols of the papacy.  Outside of a Church decision, the default position is that the pope holds the chair, no matter the extent of his errors, until the Church tells us otherwise.

    You can quote canon law all day long, or excerpts from theologians til you're blue in the face, but there is NO AUTHORITY given to ANYONE, except Church officials, for deciding this question.
    Hold on a minute. A moment ago you were saying that a Pope could be a heretic, and that it would not matter if he was. Now you're seemingly ignoring the refutation of that, and making an entirely different case about the mechanics of proving he is a heretic. This is moving the goalposts entirely. 
    Anyway, to address your new argument made in poor attempt at hiding your lies in the last post, it does not matter even if 99% of Catholics and all Bishops believe a heretic Pope is valid, he is not. While it may be many years before he is officially declared one, or it even becomes common knowledge, he is still a heretic from when he becomes guilty of heresy. 
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #37 on: April 09, 2018, 12:23:27 PM »
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    • 1.  It does not matter if the pope is a heretic or not, I must still save my soul.  No one, not even the pope, can command me to accept error.

    2.  It does not matter if the pope is a heretic or not, as only church officials can (in theory) depose him.  Any non-church official's thoughts on his heresy are meaningless, even if it can be proved he is a heretic.

    The above 2 sentences do not contradict each other.  Simply two different arguments against sedevacantism (the first, philosophical, the second, of action).
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #38 on: April 09, 2018, 01:16:55 PM »
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    • Quote from: Pax Vobis on April 09, 2018, 12:23:27 PM
    1.  It does not matter if the pope is a heretic or not, I must still save my soul.  No one, not even the pope, can command me to accept error.

    2.  It does not matter if the pope is a heretic or not, as only church officials can (in theory) depose him.  Any non-church official's thoughts on his heresy are meaningless, even if it can be proved he is a heretic.

    The above 2 sentences do not contradict each other.  Simply two different arguments against sedevacantism (the first, philosophical, the second, of action).
    1. Yes it does. If he is a heretic he is not the Pope.

    2. Wrong. The Church does not depose the Pope. The Church can only recognise post factum that he lost his Papacy(due to his heresies, etc.). The Church itself does not dethrone him. 

    No, those are not arguments against sedevacantism at all because neither of them addresses the basic dogma that a heretic cannot be Pope.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #39 on: April 09, 2018, 01:48:11 PM »
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    the basic dogma that a heretic cannot be Pope.
    It's not a dogma, it's a theological theory, which even St Robert Bellarmine was "probable" (in his opinion #4).


    Quote
    De Romano Pontifice, Chapter VI: On the Pope as a Particular Person


    The fourth proposition. It is probable and may piously be believed that not only as ‘Pope’ can the Supreme Pontiff not err, but he cannot be a heretic even as a particular person by pertinaciously believing something false against the faith.

    St Robert Bellarmine starts out his famous theory, that a pope cannot be a heretic, with the words:  "It is probable...".  Thus, even he admits that his opinion is not 100% certain, and as all saints would readily admit, he could be wrong and would defer to the actions and decsions of the Church, if such a circuмstance were to arise.

    If only sedevacantists were as reasonable, and humble in their arguments as their hero, St Robert Bellarmine.  Their extreme and false dogmatism undermines their arguments.
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    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #40 on: April 09, 2018, 02:22:06 PM »
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    • Wrong. In that quote he is saying that it is possible for a Pope to incapable of becoming a heretic. Expanding on his statement in your quote, he says "2) It is proved ab eventu. For to this point no [Pontiff] has been a heretic, or certainly it cannot be proven that any of them were heretics; therefore it is a sign that such a thing cannot be." When taken in context, it is clear that he was NOT saying a heretic could remain a Pope as you erroneously suggested, but rather that a Pope could never become a heretic in the first place.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #41 on: April 09, 2018, 02:31:13 PM »
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    When taken in context, it is clear that he was NOT saying a heretic could remain a Pope as you erroneously suggested, but rather that a Pope could never become a heretic in the first place.
    The point is he's saying it's a "probability" and that the examples he gave are "a sign".  He never taught that his opinion was fact, or 100% certain, as you do.
    I don't disagree with many of the sede arguments; I disagree that such arguments are CERTAIN, as Fr Cekada falsely says.
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    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #42 on: April 09, 2018, 03:09:01 PM »
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    • I have held the sedevacantist position for over 35 years and it is the sedevacantists that speak openly and without hesitation on their position, because they have proof from the Church on their beliefs, and therefore have no doubts. Those from the SSPX however generally avoid discussion because they can't back up what they say.
     
    Go to an SSPX forum and the sedevacantist is often censored or banned for proving his point. He bothers the conscience of those in the SSPX and is accused of being "dogmatic". That's like accusing someone of being a "dogmatic mathematician" who insists 2+2=4.
     
    Go to a sedevacantist forum like Faithful Catholics and it's a whole other ballgame. The sedevacantists don't censor SSPXers there and encourage them to discuss the issues, but they refuse. Those that do are very quickly disproven. The SSPXers know this very well so they keep their mouths shut. That says it all. If you don't believe me go try your SSPX hand at FC and watch what happens.
     
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #43 on: April 09, 2018, 03:54:20 PM »
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    • Quote from: saintbosco13 on April 09, 2018, 03:09:01 PM

    Go to a sedevacantist forum like Faithful Catholics and it's a whole other ballgame. The sedevacantists don't censor SSPXers there and encourage them to discuss the issues, but they refuse. Those that do are very quickly disproven. The SSPXers know this very well so they keep their mouths shut. That says it all. If you don't believe me go try your SSPX hand at FC and watch what happens.
     

    I didn't know that there's such a thing as a functional sede forum. I tried to look at the Faithful Catholics forum, but apparently, the threads can't be viewed unless one is a forum member. No way I'm going to join a sede forum just to view the threads. 

    At least this forum is easily viewed by non-members (for the most part).

    Non-sedes discuss the issue here all the time. Haven't you noticed? The non sedes here are not quickly disproven.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline saintbosco13

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    Re: Why arent sedevacantists loud and proud about their position?
    « Reply #44 on: April 09, 2018, 04:13:52 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on April 09, 2018, 03:54:20 PM
    I didn't know that there's such a thing as a functional sede forum. I tried to look at the Faithful Catholics forum, but apparently, the threads can't be viewed unless one is a forum member. No way I'm going to join a sede forum just to view the threads.

    At least this forum is easily viewed by non-members (for the most part).

    Non-sedes discuss the issue here all the time. Haven't you noticed? The non sedes here are not quickly disproven.
     
    FC allows people to join under pseudonyms. If you are afraid to do that there is something wrong.
     
    When sedes discuss the issues on this website they are eventually censored or banned before they are finished making their point. I have seen it over and over and over again on here over the years. SSPXers are brazen on here because they know they can have a person banned as "dogmatic" before being publicly disproven. They sing a totally different tune on FC where they know they don't have that luxury.
     
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