Schism is defined as "cutting oneself off from the Mystical Body of Christ" or considering non-Catholic that which is Catholic.

For purposes of this discussion, I'm not talking about the Pope.

In fact, for the sake of discussion, let's assume that the Pope is a manifest heretic, and someone convinces me that it is necessary for a layman to openly treat him as a non-pope. The whole, "I'm not judging or deposing the Pope, I'm just using common sense that a manifest heretic can't be Pope..."

Ok, so for purposes of discussion, let's grant that the man Cardinal Bergoglio is not Pope.

Now FROM WHAT PIT OF HELL do so many sedevacantists get this idea that everyone in the Novus Ordo is not Catholic? That no priest is priest, that no bishop is bishop, and that no layman is Catholic? That is nothing more or less than schism. If you accidentally lopped off even a dozen true Catholics, you've just taken a knife to the Mystical Body of Christ, which is the textbook definition of Schism. Sorry, you can't do that.

I have been a Traditional Catholic all my life. I know what Tradition is about -- it's about staying aloof from the official Church structures and authorities, which has been overwhelmingly taken over by Modernism and Modernist ideas. The Faith itself is being lost all over world -- by clerics and laity alike. Souls are being lost, that might have otherwise been saved. In a World War, many souls were saved that would have otherwise been lost. (Think: men on the battlefield who might have died in mortal sin during peacetime, but instead they went to Mass, confession, etc. from a Catholic chaplain and then died in battle that day) See why Vatican II was a worse Chastisement than the previous two World Wars?

But if it's true that this or that bishop, this or that cardinal, this or that priest, and this or that layman has clearly lost the Faith -- or is losing it -- it's also true that many still have the Faith. Not because of the Novus Ordo Missae and the new religion, but in spite of it. Because of TAN Books reprinting pre-V2 Catholic books. Because of this or that priest choosing to keep the Faith. Because of accidental adhesion to pre-V2 devotional practices. Because of a personal prayer life, and so on.

An order of nuns dedicated to adoring the Blessed Sacrament would be one such example. Can you say that "all novus ordo nuns aren't nuns" just because they're not affiliated with the CMRI, or they don't get involved in controversy? What does it mean to have the Faith, anyhow? I'd say worshipping Christ hidden in the Blessed Sacrament is one of those signs that you still have the Faith. Let's be real: no one without the Faith is tempted to worship a circle of bread. Unless you BELIEVE that it is the Real Presence of Christ, you would not give up a "normal life", family of your own, etc. to spend hours worshipping such.

That's exactly what you have in the case of the convent where Our Lady of Akita made her appearance. And yet how many Catholics would be tempted to dismiss the whole thing, just because it wasn't a CMRI or SSPX convent? How many Sedevacantists are misnamed -- they're actually Ecclesiavacantists. They're about an "Empty Church" rather than an "Empty Chair".

How can so many so-called Traditional Catholics be so comfortable with excommunicating 1 billion Catholics? It's not about the Pope. The Pope is a separate issue. Even if I grant that you can "declare the Pope deposed" or whatever you want to call it, it doesn't extend to every Catholic, to every vestige of Church authority. Has the Conciliar Church shut down, ceased to exist? Where is Authority then? With the handful of Trad bishops? Even if that's your belief, then I ask you: which of them is competent to rule in a case like Akita? I would say that the local bishop still has a Bishop's authority, AT LEAST until he himself proves to be a manifest heretic. And saying a dangerous Mass is not enough to render one a vitandus ("to be avoided" public heretic who has lost any office. He can still have the Faith, even if he says a Mass that tends to destroy the Faith. It just isn't a smart idea, that's all.

I think too many Trads have a "cooties" mentality with regards to the Novus Ordo. They like the idea of throwing out the whole ball o' wax and starting over. Nice and simple; nice and clean. Well, I'm not for easy OR for simple. I know that usually an easy solution is the wrong one.

At any rate, we need to judge just judgment, not cultivate a cult or schismatic mentality.

It reminds me of the strategy of a salesman. They have to "get you" on the main sale before they can make the real money selling you add-ons.

That's how Best Buy and other computer retailers operate:

Profit made on $500 computer system: $10.
Profit made on $40 inkjet printer cartridge: $25.
Profit made on $20 printer cable:  $13.

They instruct their salesmen to NEVER neglect these "little add-ons" since that's where most of their money is made.

Likewise, it's easy to sell people on someone like Pope Francis not being Pope. He says things every day that I can hardly imagine a Catholic saying, nevermind the Vicar of Christ!

If only it stopped there. But it never does.

But it's those "add-ons" where the devil intends to do the most damage -- the widespread suspicion, the throwing out the baby with the bathwater, the schismatic mentality, infighting with other Trad groups which have dared to diverge 2% from your path, the bitterness and despair, hatred, and so forth.

I'm not sure where we got "so many" sedevacantists thinking this way.  From those who are vocal on here I'm seeing such SV's as a small minority.

Then again, if they are still here they're probably among the more sane and balanced ones :)

I've seen all kinds, though, on a short-term basis. Dogmatic ("you're going to hell unless you convert to sedevacantism!") sedevacantists and all.

I'm a sedevacantist but I find dogmatic anything, whether it be sedeplenist, resister, or sedevacantist, to be unrealistic and uncharitable. People such as the Dimonds, although they are Catholics, sicken me because they have no charity toward fellow sincere Catholics. I believe there are many still in the NO structure who are good Catholics but live in a type of intraecclesial invincible ignorance. Did I just invent a term? Anyway, God is infinite mercy, so I don't believe it's a matter of being "right" but a matter of one's desire to seek the truth sincerely during the Modernist Crisis and please God. After all, NOT ONE OF US knows with certainty what the truth is, despite dogmatists' claims to the contrary.

Matthew wrote:

I think too many Trads have a "cooties" mentality with regards to the Novus Ordo. They like the idea of throwing out the whole ball o' wax and starting over. Nice and simple; nice and clean. Well, I'm not for easy OR for simple. I know that usually an easy solution is the wrong one.

I think all of us agree that there is no simple answer to this crisis.  Whatever response that any of forms to this crisis must be consistent with all of the teaching of the Church.  No one since this crisis began has ever undertaken to write a comprehensive response for Catholics to the crisis, that connects and applies all of the principles as taught by the pre-Vatican II Church to this crisis.

Every proposition to every aspect of this crisis must be tested in the fire to burn off heretical, erroneous, or illogical ideas.  Every proposition must be defended through the use of authorities: papal teaching, Doctors of the Church, theologians, canonists, and Church historians.  

All assumptions must be challenged and defended with evidence.  Nothing should be taken for granted or believed because someone, however prominent, said it.  When evidence is presented, it must be scrutinized and analyzed.  

All of must be humble and allow our brothers in the Faith to challenge us on every point, so there can be rigor applied to our thinking with the goal of furthering our understanding of the truth.  

The entire crisis must be thought of in terms of a consistent ecclesiology, so that Catholics can grasp that nothing substantially has changed in principle from the pre-Vatican II days to today.   Catholics must be able to read approved pre-Vatican II books about the papacy, the Church, the liturgy, the Code, theology, etc, and recognize that it is the same Church now that existed in October, 1958.

Sedevacantism....hmm....Am I one?
Not sure...I am a traditional Catholic, I don't follow heretics and schismatics.  
I love the Church and have only known the Traditional Latin Mass (1955).  We have a picture of Pope Pius XII in our sacristy along with Our Lady and other Saints.  My parish's priests offer Holy Mass daily (without the Pope's name in the Canon due to his death in 1958).  All Sacraments are before the so-called Vatican II council.  My parish priest's sermons are based on the Faith, the Holy Scriptures, the Lives of the Saints and the Virtues.  I remember a long time ago a sermon mentioning the "Novus Ordo" but the priest placed it amongst the Protestant sects.  I never heard the term "sedevacantist" mentioned in my parish - only on the internet.  I'm a Roman Catholic - so what's the problem?

Quote from: Emitte Lucem Tuam

Sedevacantism....hmm....Am I one?
Not sure...I am a traditional Catholic, I don't follow heretics and schismatics.  
I love the Church and have only known the Traditional Latin Mass (1955).  We have a picture of Pope Pius XII in our sacristy along with Our Lady and other Saints.  My parish's priests offer Holy Mass daily (without the Pope's name in the Canon due to his death in 1958).  All Sacraments are before the so-called Vatican II council.  My parish priest's sermons are based on the Faith, the Holy Scriptures an the Lives of the Saints and the Virtues.  I remember a long time ago a sermon mentioning the "Novus Ordo" but the priest placed it amongst the Protestant sects.  I never heard the term "sedevacantist" mentioned in my parish - only on the internet.  I'm a Roman Catholic - so what's the problem?

The Amish, who are also an isolated community, are also misinformed.

Not sure what you mean?

Quote from: Emitte Lucem Tuam

Quote from: LaramieHirsch

Quote from: Emitte Lucem Tuam

Sedevacantism....hmm....Am I one?
Not sure...I am a traditional Catholic, I don't follow heretics and schismatics.  
I love the Church and have only known the Traditional Latin Mass (1955).  We have a picture of Pope Pius XII in our sacristy along with Our Lady and other Saints.  My parish's priests offer Holy Mass daily (without the Pope's name in the Canon due to his death in 1958).  All Sacraments are before the so-called Vatican II council.  My parish priest's sermons are based on the Faith, the Holy Scriptures an the Lives of the Saints and the Virtues.  I remember a long time ago a sermon mentioning the "Novus Ordo" but the priest placed it amongst the Protestant sects.  I never heard the term "sedevacantist" mentioned in my parish - only on the internet.  I'm a Roman Catholic - so what's the problem?

The Amish, who are also an isolated community, are also misinformed.

Not sure what you mean?

He's comparing traditional Catholics to the Amish.  Why, I have no idea, except that it's par for the course.  And now he's going to have "real life stuff" that will keep him from justifying his position, like when he leveled sedevacantists categorically as schismatics who left Our Lord on the Cross.  

No.  I was comparing Emitte Lucem Ryan's parish community to the Amish.  I am now including sede communities in this comparison.

Real life stuff distracting me?  You bet.

Justifying my position?  Impossible with mindsets such as yours.  

And yes--when you jump ship from the Barque of Peter, you abandon Christ.  God will confirm my righteous position to you at your judgement.