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Author Topic: Who ordains CMRI priests?  (Read 49762 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

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Who ordains CMRI priests?
« Reply #270 on: November 11, 2014, 04:53:17 PM »
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    Would you even consider saying that training is the usual seminary training for seminarians? - yes or no?


    I already told you there is nothing wrong with the training that Bishop Pivarunas received, he excels in Catholic Principles.  The proof is in the taste of the pudding.  He is truly blessed by God.  Too bad you won't give him a chance you are really missing out.  

    Too bad we can't say the same about your pope, who doesn't even believe in EENS, yet you dare call him the Vicar of Christ.  
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    Offline Cantarella

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #271 on: November 11, 2014, 05:01:04 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Quote
    Would you even consider saying that training is the usual seminary training for seminarians? - yes or no?


    I already told you there is nothing wrong with the training that Bishop Pivarunas received, he excels in Catholic Principles.  


    Catholic principles such as Pivarunas' argument that Natural Family Planning must be permissible because certain people before Vatican II allegedly approved of it. Another instance of how the CMRI idealizes anything that happened before / during Pope Pius XII, including liberal errors.  

    CMRI is stuck in Fiftiesism. It condemns the alleged heresies of the conciliar popes, and then go and adhere to the same heresies anyway, therefore being part of the same unclean and progressive spirit from Vatican II.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #272 on: November 11, 2014, 05:11:32 PM »
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    Quote
    Would you even consider saying that training is the usual seminary training for seminarians? - yes or no?


    I already told you there is nothing wrong with the training that Bishop Pivarunas received, he excels in Catholic Principles.  The proof is in the taste of the pudding.  He is truly blessed by God.  Too bad you won't give him a chance you are really missing out.  


    Ok, good to know that you agree with CMRI that Schuckardt's seminary training is the usual seminary training for seminarians - and "that there was nothing wrong with that training" - and you even have proof. Unreal.

    Quote from: MyrnaM

    Too bad we can't say the same about your pope, who doesn't even believe in EENS, yet you dare call him the Vicar of Christ.  


    Yes, you and he have that in common. You both believe in "The salvation for those outside of the Church".

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #273 on: November 11, 2014, 05:20:02 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nado
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Nado


    Your concern about what physical building was used is plainly silly.

    Bp. Pivarunas was 16 years old in 1974 and entered religious life. They purchased the Mount about 2 years later. He was finally ordained in 1985 at age 27, by Bp. George Musey.

    In 1984 he helped oust Schuckardt. Cults don't oust their leaders.

    You made a statement in this thread that the training cannot have been sufficient because Schuckardt was involved. Can you give us some detail on why you think that?


    I asked the same question to Myrna which went unanswered, *surprise*.

    Do you agree with CMRI that the seminary training from Schuckardt is the usual seminary training that all seminarians receive?


    I asked you the question first. If you have a reason to say that priestly training, with Schuckardt as head of the organization, positively did not suffice for essential training to the priesthood, then give your reasons.


    You obviously have no idea what is going on - rather than repost everything you have not bothered to read, here is about an 9 minute news video from 2003(?) showing only a teeny tiny bit of what Schuckardt was about.

    Now, if you can stomach watching the whole thing to the end, answer if you agree with CMRI that Schuckardt offered the usual seminary training. Would you send your son to his seminary? - honestly?

       
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline En medio stat virtus

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #274 on: November 11, 2014, 06:58:07 PM »
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  • It's curious for any of us who are looking for truth to not realize that there were several Thuc line Bishops who were kicked out by CMRI. One of those being Bishop George Musey. Who they slandered verbally after his attempt to reform them. He did conditionally ordain them, but did not realize the true nature of the problems there. He simply called it spiritual incest. His words. They are basically self taught then and now. Sorry if this offends anyone, but it is the truth. And yes there are good people there who have suffered a lot during the Schukardt era, but it does not make it Catholic now.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #275 on: November 11, 2014, 08:30:17 PM »
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  • Stubborn et al,  I came into CMRI in 1982 and remember much of what was going on.  I found this and after reading it, it is very much as I remembered seeing and hearing of the goings on.  

    Hope this will satisfy you Stubborn, if not its because you do not want to see or understand, but I think this is pretty honest about what happened.  

    As I said before, a lot of history with CMRI decades ago, but today we flourish.  No one is hiding anything, CMRI as the Catholic Church has always had its ups and downs.  

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=26&catname=14
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    Offline Mabel

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #276 on: November 11, 2014, 09:02:49 PM »
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  • Quote from: Nado
    Quote from: En medio stat virtus
    It's curious for any of us who are looking for truth to not realize that there were several Thuc line Bishops who were kicked out by CMRI. One of those being Bishop George Musey. Who they slandered verbally after his attempt to reform them. He did conditionally ordain them, but did not realize the true nature of the problems there. He simply called it spiritual incest. His words. They are basically self taught then and now. Sorry if this offends anyone, but it is the truth. And yes there are good people there who have suffered a lot during the Schukardt era, but it does not make it Catholic now.


    I sympathize with wanting to get everything straight as soon as possible, but Bp. Musey pushed them too fast, which is not the mind of the Church. One thing that apparently made Bp. Musey impatient to correct everything was that he believed he had ordinary jurisdiction over the CMRI, and he did not. That was a perfectly good reason to cease working with him. Your usage of "kicked out" shows a bias. No Thuc line bishop has lived with them.


    There are two sides to every story. Both make up the history. I will say this, CMRI has fairly represented the side of their critics when I have questioned them. How do I know that? I dealt directly with those critics and the story was the same. I have also spoken to objective third parties who have explained different situations. Overall, CMRI under Bp. Pivarunas has proved itself a worthy organization.

    We could sit here for weeks on end and drag the name of just about every single traditional priest through the mud. We could talk about the mistakes of men, now dead and judged, who are unable to defend themselves. If Stubborn or his lady friend think that their favorites are immune, it is because they are completely blind to their own faults and shortcomings. Bp. Pivarunas' list of alleged mistakes or infractions are much shorter than most. I am not advocating doing that to anyone, but what good would it serve? What good has Stubborn achieved by his tirade?

    Also, I'm still waiting...Stubborn how have you or anyone else been punished by questioning CMRI, or others that you allege to be cult members? I want names, specific punishments, and the question that caused the punishment.


    Offline Stubborn

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #277 on: November 12, 2014, 03:08:04 AM »
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  • Quote from: Nado
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Nado
    Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Nado


    Your concern about what physical building was used is plainly silly.

    Bp. Pivarunas was 16 years old in 1974 and entered religious life. They purchased the Mount about 2 years later. He was finally ordained in 1985 at age 27, by Bp. George Musey.

    In 1984 he helped oust Schuckardt. Cults don't oust their leaders.

    You made a statement in this thread that the training cannot have been sufficient because Schuckardt was involved. Can you give us some detail on why you think that?


    I asked the same question to Myrna which went unanswered, *surprise*.

    Do you agree with CMRI that the seminary training from Schuckardt is the usual seminary training that all seminarians receive?


    I asked you the question first. If you have a reason to say that priestly training, with Schuckardt as head of the organization, positively did not suffice for essential training to the priesthood, then give your reasons.


    You obviously have no idea what is going on - rather than repost everything you have not bothered to read, here is about an 9 minute news video from 2003(?) showing only a teeny tiny bit of what Schuckardt was about.

    Now, if you can stomach watching the whole thing to the end, answer if you agree with CMRI that Schuckardt offered the usual seminary training. Would you send your son to his seminary? - honestly?

       


    Yes, I am perfectly aware of the CMRI past. However, since you gave the link as your response, and it was only 9 minutes, I watched it.

    Now, I have to honestly say, nothing that video showed argues against a sufficient priestly training. You are attempting to make a personal conclusion that is not rational. There is no logical connection. It is all emotion. It's the like the emotional Prots who broke away from the Church because they took scandal by the scandals of selling indulgences, or other moral scandals in the hierarchy. It is a sin to take scandal, but dumping the Church is not rational.


    So would your answer be yes or no? - does that mean that you would have no issues sending your son to him for his seminary training?

    And of course I make a personal conclusion - everyone does. You say there is no logical connection yet the CMRI disagrees with you. They are the ones who disagree with your personal conclusion. They are the ones who tell us on their website that their foundation started with Schuckardt in 1967. Why do you say there is no connection when they say there is?



    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Stubborn

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #278 on: November 12, 2014, 03:29:07 AM »
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  • Quote from: Mabel
    Quote from: Nado
    Quote from: En medio stat virtus
    It's curious for any of us who are looking for truth to not realize that there were several Thuc line Bishops who were kicked out by CMRI. One of those being Bishop George Musey. Who they slandered verbally after his attempt to reform them. He did conditionally ordain them, but did not realize the true nature of the problems there. He simply called it spiritual incest. His words. They are basically self taught then and now. Sorry if this offends anyone, but it is the truth. And yes there are good people there who have suffered a lot during the Schukardt era, but it does not make it Catholic now.


    I sympathize with wanting to get everything straight as soon as possible, but Bp. Musey pushed them too fast, which is not the mind of the Church. One thing that apparently made Bp. Musey impatient to correct everything was that he believed he had ordinary jurisdiction over the CMRI, and he did not. That was a perfectly good reason to cease working with him. Your usage of "kicked out" shows a bias. No Thuc line bishop has lived with them.


    There are two sides to every story. Both make up the history. I will say this, CMRI has fairly represented the side of their critics when I have questioned them. How do I know that? I dealt directly with those critics and the story was the same. I have also spoken to objective third parties who have explained different situations. Overall, CMRI under Bp. Pivarunas has proved itself a worthy organization.

    We could sit here for weeks on end and drag the name of just about every single traditional priest through the mud. We could talk about the mistakes of men, now dead and judged, who are unable to defend themselves. If Stubborn or his lady friend think that their favorites are immune, it is because they are completely blind to their own faults and shortcomings. Bp. Pivarunas' list of alleged mistakes or infractions are much shorter than most. I am not advocating doing that to anyone, but what good would it serve? What good has Stubborn achieved by his tirade?

    Also, I'm still waiting...Stubborn how have you or anyone else been punished by questioning CMRI, or others that you allege to be cult members? I want names, specific punishments, and the question that caused the punishment.




    As usual, you dodge the issue.

    This is about the fact that you all say there is no connection with Schuckardt, yet the CMRI website more than once says that there is, though they say it in a way that does not mention his name.

    Personally, I have no desire to be connected in anyway to a man who started his own church and called it Catholic, but that's just me, and presumably others out there who are not as indifferent to the situation there as you.

    I said your replies are cult like. That you all demonstrate cult like characteristics with your replies. I also already said why - I'm not going back to quote myself, if you would have read what I wrote perhaps you would understand why you all act that way.

     
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #279 on: November 12, 2014, 03:43:43 AM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Stubborn et al,  I came into CMRI in 1982 and remember much of what was going on.  I found this and after reading it, it is very much as I remembered seeing and hearing of the goings on.  

    Hope this will satisfy you Stubborn, if not its because you do not want to see or understand, but I think this is pretty honest about what happened.  

    As I said before, a lot of history with CMRI decades ago, but today we flourish.  No one is hiding anything, CMRI as the Catholic Church has always had its ups and downs.  

    http://www.traditionalmass.org/articles/article.php?id=26&catname=14


    Here Myrna, he wrote this 10 years after he wrote your link - and this link is more about the subject at hand. Untrained and Un-Tridentine: Holy Orders and the Canonically Unfit

    Although he does not mention the CMRI directly, indirectly he references them throughout.

    This part helps sum up what it's all about. Emphasis mine.
    Quote from: Fr. Cekada


    Those of us old enough to remember how the Tridentine system worked and what standards it set find the notion of an untrained priest not only bizarre, but also positively horrifying. .......

       The laity sometimes tolerate the untrained and un-Tridentine “traditionalist” priest because they do not understand the exacting requirements for priestly ordination. In other cases, laymen may feel that “valid sacraments” are all that count, and that the rest is legalistic window dressing — so why be fussy?

          Experience, though, teaches that an unschooled, unformed priest is a time-bomb waiting to go off. When the explosion comes, scandal follows and souls are driven away from the traditional Mass.

          And when such a priest or bishop emerges from an ecclesiastical underworld where no one had proper training, is it really safe to assume that his ordination or consecration was valid anyway?

          But in any case, valid or not, such a person’s presence at the altar and in the confessional degrades the priesthood and endangers souls.




    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Mabel

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #280 on: November 12, 2014, 10:53:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Stubborn
    Quote from: Mabel
    Quote from: Nado
    Quote from: En medio stat virtus
    It's curious for any of us who are looking for truth to not realize that there were several Thuc line Bishops who were kicked out by CMRI. One of those being Bishop George Musey. Who they slandered verbally after his attempt to reform them. He did conditionally ordain them, but did not realize the true nature of the problems there. He simply called it spiritual incest. His words. They are basically self taught then and now. Sorry if this offends anyone, but it is the truth. And yes there are good people there who have suffered a lot during the Schukardt era, but it does not make it Catholic now.


    I sympathize with wanting to get everything straight as soon as possible, but Bp. Musey pushed them too fast, which is not the mind of the Church. One thing that apparently made Bp. Musey impatient to correct everything was that he believed he had ordinary jurisdiction over the CMRI, and he did not. That was a perfectly good reason to cease working with him. Your usage of "kicked out" shows a bias. No Thuc line bishop has lived with them.


    There are two sides to every story. Both make up the history. I will say this, CMRI has fairly represented the side of their critics when I have questioned them. How do I know that? I dealt directly with those critics and the story was the same. I have also spoken to objective third parties who have explained different situations. Overall, CMRI under Bp. Pivarunas has proved itself a worthy organization.

    We could sit here for weeks on end and drag the name of just about every single traditional priest through the mud. We could talk about the mistakes of men, now dead and judged, who are unable to defend themselves. If Stubborn or his lady friend think that their favorites are immune, it is because they are completely blind to their own faults and shortcomings. Bp. Pivarunas' list of alleged mistakes or infractions are much shorter than most. I am not advocating doing that to anyone, but what good would it serve? What good has Stubborn achieved by his tirade?

    Also, I'm still waiting...Stubborn how have you or anyone else been punished by questioning CMRI, or others that you allege to be cult members? I want names, specific punishments, and the question that caused the punishment.




    As usual, you dodge the issue.

    This is about the fact that you all say there is no connection with Schuckardt, yet the CMRI website more than once says that there is, though they say it in a way that does not mention his name.

    Personally, I have no desire to be connected in anyway to a man who started his own church and called it Catholic, but that's just me, and presumably others out there who are not as indifferent to the situation there as you.

    I said your replies are cult like. That you all demonstrate cult like characteristics with your replies. I also already said why - I'm not going back to quote myself, if you would have read what I wrote perhaps you would understand why you all act that way.

     


    Actually, I laid out everything that was known and a summary of my entire knowledge and method of research in one post in particular.

    You just won't be happy unless someone says "Oh, wow, Stubborn, thanks for saving me from those awful people. Please, take me to your leader so I can be a real Catholic."

    In your pride, you don't realize that you are making a case for the CMRI and one against yourself.

    So, tell me again, since you highlighted the fact that these alleged cult like members punish questioners dissenters: How were you, or any person punished? Give names, the dissent or question asked, and their subsequent punishment.

    You highlighted that point buddy, not me. Now, I want to know the detail about these people who were punished so that I can admonish those who have sought to punish others.


    Offline MyrnaM

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    Who ordains CMRI priests?
    « Reply #281 on: November 12, 2014, 11:54:51 AM »
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  • ]article[/url]


    Quote from: Stubborn

    Although he does not mention the CMRI directly, indirectly he references them throughout.


    You're right he does not even mention CMRI in your article, but makes a general statement, no doubt according to his newest chart and approved list he might have been speaking about the StPeter Frat. and novus ordo training.  YOUR ILK.

    http://www.fathercekada.com/2013/11/11/sgg-young-persons-field-guide-to-potential-trad-spouses/
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    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #282 on: November 12, 2014, 01:46:46 PM »
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  • According to the chart above, then the only groups that can have the Blood and Body of Jesus Christ are the sedevacantists and a few SSPX due to the "valid" ordinations. Forget about the Universalism of the Church, for example the Eastern Rites. Hopefully the honest truth - seeking soul who is behind the fence can see the evidence of the schismatic condition of CMRI and other sedevacantist groups. This chart reveals that CMRI REFUSES COMMUNION WITH OTHER CATHOLICS WHICH IS THE SECOND CONDITION FOR SCHISM.    

    Quote

    Schism:

     "It is therefore true that there may be some theological discussion of whether or not Sedevacantism is schismatic.  The answer to this depends on the degree of Sedevacantism.  A radical Sedevacantism heretics who calls us to be in communion with a heretic (Wojtyla), they say.  This is certainly schismatic, because they clearly reject communion with true Catholics, who are not modernists.  Making your Sedevacantism a quasi-article of faith, they certainly fall into the second category of people that canon 1325 §2 declares as schismatics' are schismatics who refuse communion with the members of the Church subject to him (ie, the Sovereign Pontiff) '.  Consequently, its rejection is to be part of the Church, and indeed making a 'church' as they see it only consists Sedevacantism and certainly schismatic. "[29]

     This is exactly the case of CMRI (Mount St. Michael, Spokane), which states:

     "Are traditional Catholics subject to the local hierarchy and ultimately to Rome? ... They (the Sedevacantism) acknowledge that they are not really subject to John Paul II and obey Him." [30]

    http://nonpossumus-vcr.blogspot.com/2014/11/esta-vacante-la-sede-por-el-rp.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2FEtYHoF+%28Non+Possumus%29

    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline MyrnaM

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    « Reply #283 on: November 12, 2014, 02:07:00 PM »
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  • Cantarella,  I know for a fact they refuse only to KNOWN non-Catholics, and any women immodestly dressed, where the priest and altar boys are above her and see more than they care to see.  

    UNLIKE Cantarella's Pope who offers "Communion" to anyone even a known pagan.  

    Cantarella, not sure if you are so mistaken or just a liar.  So I will be charitable and give you the benefit of the doubt;  you are mistaken about CMRI policies.  
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    Offline Cantarella

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    « Reply #284 on: November 12, 2014, 02:15:25 PM »
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  • Quote from: MyrnaM
    Cantarella,  I know for a fact they refuse only to KNOWN non-Catholics, and any women immodestly dressed, where the priest and altar boys are above her and see more than they care to see.  

    UNLIKE Cantarella's Pope who offers "Communion" to anyone even a known pagan.  

    Cantarella, not sure if you are so mistaken or just a liar.  So I will be charitable and give you the benefit of the doubt;  you are mistaken about CMRI policies.  


    No, people in the pews just do not realize how evil this is. They are being naïve and deceived. They just don't know any better.

    According to the chart you posted, the ONLY valid ordinations left on earth are Thuc / Lefebvre. is this correct?

    Do you even understand what does this mean?

    It means that people that have been baptized by priests ordained in the New Rite are not really baptized because the Sacraments are invalid. It means that people who attend a Mass like the Novus Ordo or Byzantine rites do not really get to have the True Blood and Body of Our Lord. Make the necessary connections.

    You as well as most CMRI attendees just don't realize how cultish and schismatic the whole organization really is. They are just dazzled by the mask of "Tradition". Of course they are not going to refuse people from coming in, even the ones coming from the NO. They always need new people to support them. Of course they won't do that but once you are already in, they will inject their diabolical propaganda until you are actually outside the Church without even realizing it. I don't really think you have bad will Myrna, but you really need to educate yourself better because you just don't understand.




     
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.