Author Topic: Who Is Considered Among The Redeemed? (Read 6788 times)

fkpagnanelli · « **Reply #1 on:** January 23, 2010, 01:11:33 PM »

In the 20 Ecuмenical Councils, there is not a single mention of a non-baptized person being described as redeemed.

The above post needs clarification. Only water baptized persons are redeemed of original sin, the stain of the first Adam. Only Catholics in the state of grace are redeemed of both their original sin and actual sins and therefore can obtained salvation.

I challenge all to present a teaching from the 20 Ecuмenical Councils or from a Catholic pope that proves the above to be in error.

Raoul76 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 23, 2010, 03:50:06 PM »

CM, you have a wonder twin.

fkpagnanelli · « **Reply #3 on:** January 23, 2010, 05:16:31 PM »

Quote from: Raoul76

CM, you have a wonder twin.

Raoul76, theologically I agree with CM on everything. He is Catholic and so am I.

I disagree with CM on this. CM is a little slow in denouncing you as an evil heretic. I am not.

Make an intelligent response or anathema, you demon!

Caminus · « **Reply #4 on:** January 23, 2010, 05:35:16 PM »

Quote

For the whole of mankind was freed from the slavery of sin by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ as their ransom, and there is no one who is excluded from the benefit of this Redemption: hence the Divine Pastor has one part of the human race already happily sheltered within the fold, the others He declares He will lovingly urge to enter therein: "and other sheep I have, that are not of this fold; them also must I bring, and they shall hear my voice"

He obviously doesn't think that the entire human race was subjectively redeemed. All those words above and I found proof in two minutes -- and right there in the paragraph quoted to show him to be in error.

trad123 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 23, 2010, 05:50:11 PM »

http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Ben15/b15adbea.htm

Quote

1.
.....For the whole of mankind was freed from the slavery of sin by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ as their ransom, and there is no one who is excluded from the benefit of this Redemption: hence the Divine Pastor has one part of the human race already happily sheltered within the fold.....

It seems to me that exclusion does not therefore mean they've received the benefit of His death. Just in the same manner, one can say that no one is excluded from Heaven, but in that context taken to mean that God does not predesintate persons to Hell, without taking account of their sins, because God does not will their damnation. To believe that God damns souls without account of their works to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination.

There is such a thing as predestination in Catholic theology:

Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, p. 245:

Quote

God, by an Eternal Resolve of His Will, predestines certain men, on account of their foreseen sins, to eternal rejection. (De fide.)

trad123 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 23, 2010, 06:03:13 PM »

Quote from: trad123

It seems to me that exclusion does not therefore mean they've received the benefit of His death.

What I've stated is in response to those that believe it is a contradiction of the Council of Trent:

Quote

Council of Trent : "But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated."

Quote from: trad123

To believe that God damns souls without account of their works is to believe in the Calvinist doctrine of predestination.

I forgot to put "is".

Caminus · « **Reply #7 on:** January 23, 2010, 06:14:41 PM »

I'll clear it up even more. Objectively all men were redeemed or receive some kind of grace or benefit from the Redemption. Scripture uses the term in the objective sense at times. The term is used subjectively as well, in Scripture and Tradition, which pertains to receiving the actual and primary fruit of Redemption. Benedict XV was obviously speaking objectively. To cast him from his rightful place based upon such a ridiculous and unjust interpretation is a mortal sin. You've gone mad. This crisis is distorting your perception in the hopes of distancing yourself from John Paul's errors.

fkpagnanelli · « **Reply #8 on:** January 23, 2010, 06:31:53 PM »

Quote from: Caminus

I'll clear it up even more. Objectively all men were redeemed or receive some kind of grace or benefit from the Redemption. Scripture uses the term in the objective sense at times. The term is used subjectively as well, in Scripture and Tradition, which pertains to receiving the actual and primary fruit of Redemption. Benedict XV was obviously speaking objectively. To cast him from his rightful place based upon such a ridiculous and unjust interpretation is a mortal sin. You've gone mad. This crisis is distorting your perception in the hopes of distancing yourself from John Paul's errors.

Can you get any more heretical than this guy? Unbelievable.

Council of Trent : "But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated."

trad123 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 23, 2010, 06:36:26 PM »

The question needing to be answered is:

What exactly is the "benefit" of His death? What is being received?

Personally, I think it means the adoption as the sons of God.

fkpagnanelli · « **Reply #10 on:** January 23, 2010, 06:47:52 PM »

Quote from: trad123

The question needing to be answered is:

What exactly is the "benefit" of His death? What is being received?

Personally, I think it means the adoption as the sons of God.

That's a very good question. One that absolutely has to be answered. Fortunately, Trent does answer it for us.

SESSION 6, CHAPTER III.
Who are justified through Christ.

But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated. For as in truth men, if they were not born propagated of the seed of Adam, would not be born unjust,-seeing that, by that propagation, they contract through him, when they are conceived, injustice as their own,-so, if they were not born again in Christ, they never would be justified; seeing that, in that new birth, there is bestowed upon them, through the merit of His passion, the grace whereby they are made just. For this benefit the apostle exhorts us, evermore to give thanks to the Father, who hath made us worthy to be partakers of the lot of the saints in light, and hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the Kingdom of the Son of his love, in whom we have redemption, and remission of sins.

The benefit is justification, redemption, remission of sins, and membership as sons and daughters of God in His Catholic Family. That is the benefit. But of course, these are all indivisible from each other. Once justified, you are redeemed, have had your sins forgiven, and are made a son or daughter of God, and vice versa.

But without having the benefit imparted via water baptism, one receives nothing from His death, His sacrifice. This is dogma, not my opinion, as shown above.

trad123 · « **Reply #11 on:** January 23, 2010, 06:59:27 PM »

Raoul76 · « **Reply #12 on:** January 23, 2010, 07:15:44 PM »

I never thought I would agree with Caminus. This thread should be marked for posterity.

Council of Trent:

Quote

"But, though He died for all, yet do not all receive the benefit of His death, but those only unto whom the merit of His passion is communicated."

Benedict XV:

Quote

For the whole of mankind was freed from the slavery of sin by the shedding of the blood of Jesus Christ as their ransom, and there is no one who is excluded from the benefit of this Redemption: hence the Divine Pastor has one part of the human race already happily sheltered within the fold."

No one is excluded because all are potential sons of God.

Imagine an elementary-school teacher saying to the kids "No one is excluded from Ritz crackers, have all you want." But some of the kids do not take Ritz crackers. All COULD have had Ritz crackers if they wanted to, but they do not. Just as all COULD benefit from Christ's salvific death on the Cross but do not.

Caminus · « **Reply #13 on:** January 23, 2010, 07:30:56 PM »

Quote

Can you get any more heretical than this guy?

Can anyone quite reach your level of stupidity? Doubtful.

Caminus · « **Reply #14 on:** January 23, 2010, 07:35:15 PM »

You're one of those little internet nitwits who uses the term 'heretical' like a stick to beat up your strawmen. It's your golden nugget, your trump card. Abuse of the term is just as bad as its non-use. Think of this, O Righteous One, everytime you falsely accuse someone of heresy, it is a mortal sin. Yes, that's right, it makes you an enemy of God, fitted for eternal fire for it demonstrates that you do not have other virtues necessary for salvation. God help you.