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Poll

When did you change from the R&R position to the sedevacantist position?

I’ve held the sedevacantist position when I first embraced tradition.
18 (50%)
In the last two years.
7 (19.4%)
Since Francis.
5 (13.9%)
Since Ratzinger.
1 (2.8%)
Since JPII
5 (13.9%)

Total Members Voted: 36

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Author Topic: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?  (Read 4526 times)

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Offline Meg

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Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
« Reply #90 on: June 09, 2023, 07:52:07 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 08, 2023, 08:10:06 PM
    No, of course I’m not saying it’s an article of faith, but what does it look like to you?

    It looks like there's a Crisis. But we still have Our Lord's word that the Church will not fail. I don't think it has failed.
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #91 on: June 09, 2023, 08:19:02 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 09, 2023, 07:52:07 AM
    It looks like there's a Crisis. But we still have Our Lord's word that the Church will not fail. I don't think it has failed.

    No, it doesn’t just “look” like there’s a crisis, we’re in an unparalleled one. Of course the Church can’t fail, that’s dogmatic, but this is an unprecedented crisis which is worse than the Arian Heresy and the Great Western Schism combined. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #92 on: June 09, 2023, 08:31:57 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2023, 07:37:36 AM
    Sean, that doesn't make any sense.  Dogmatic facts are called "dogmatic" precisely BECAUSE they have the certainty of faith.  You're actually citing the position of those theologians who argue that papal legitimacy can not be certain with the certainty of faith but only with a moral certainty, since the question of who currently occupies the Holy See was obviously not revealed by Our Lord.  So I actually agree with that, but then you're not arguing for the "dogmatic fact" position, but, rather, for the moral certainty position.

    Let me explain what you really mean:

    "Distinguo.  It's heretical for people who call themselves sedevacantists to doubt the papal legitimacy, but it's not heretical for prominent figures of what's commonly known as R&R."  This is really your intent, and it shows your intellectual dishonesty.

    No, Sean.  Dogmatic fact means what it says, that it's dogmatic, owed the assent off faith, which precludes all doubt and has absolute certitude.  Theologian Cardinal Zubizaretta, writing during the reign of Pius XII, stated that those who would deny or doubt the legitimacy of Pope Pius XII are heretics.  He argued against those who stated that papal legitimacy cannot be dogmatic by saying that the legitimacy of Pope Pius XII was "implicitly revealed".

    So, I agree with you that papal legitimacy doesn't admit of absolute certainty, but that means that we're disagreeing with the notion that it's dogmatic fact.  DOGMATIC fact by definition means exactly what is says, that it's dogmatically (aka absolutely) certain.  DOGMATIC certainly precludes all doubt by its very definition.

    Lad- 

    Going to the cabin, so won’t be able to argue with you this weekend; hope you have a happy b-day.

    Regarding your response, I would again distinguish:

    Dogmatic facts are “theologically certain,” but not “infallibly certain.

    Hooe you have a great day!
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    Offline Jaynek

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #93 on: June 09, 2023, 09:27:33 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 08, 2023, 05:52:31 AM
    Basically, you're trying to see what percentage of SVs became SVs are the result of Jorge's glorious "pontificate".
    My own impression is that people who became SV because of the current pontificate tend to moved by an (understandable) emotional reaction, while those who make deeper theological arguments tend to have become SV earlier.  Of course, this does not apply to people who only discovered tradition in the last ten years.

    Anyhow, I cannot think of any way to design a poll to test that theory, so it will have to remain just my impression. This thread's poll is pretty good and asks an interesting question.  In hindsight, it would be improved by an "I am not SV but am interested in this topic" option, but I doubt that I would have thought of it either.  I agree with Matthew that creating a good poll is way harder than it seems.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #94 on: June 09, 2023, 09:59:09 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 09, 2023, 08:19:02 AM
    No, it doesn’t just “look” like there’s a crisis, we’re in an unparalleled one. Of course the Church can’t fail, that’s dogmatic, but this is an unprecedented crisis which is worse than the Arian Heresy and the Great Western Schism combined.

    Well, you asked me what it looks like to me, so I told you what I think it looks like.

    I don't think it's worse than the Arian heresy. Of course the Popes weren't Arians, but most of the bishops were. St. Athanasius never said that there was no longer a visible church, though he did of course say...."They have the churches, but we have the Faith." I also don't recall that St. Athanasius ever said that there were no valid sacraments in the Arian church. He worked tirelessly for the restoration of the true Catholicism. He didn't sit around complaining about the Pope not being a Pope. Though of course the Arians tended toward violence, so he had to defend himself on occasion. The modernists don't often use violence, so it's easier to just complain about the non-church and non-pope (for sedevacantists).
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #95 on: June 09, 2023, 10:15:38 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 09, 2023, 09:59:09 AM
    Of course the Popes weren't Arians, but most of the bishops were.

    Yeah, in terms of numbers, the Arian crisis was as extensive.  What makes this different is precisely, as you say, that the Pope didn't go Arian (although he was arguably somewhat week and may have compromised, likely under duress).
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #96 on: June 09, 2023, 10:36:27 AM »
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    I don't think it's worse than the Arian heresy. 
    :facepalm:

    The Arians were heretics based on 1-2 heresies; now the bishops are heretics on 20+ heresies.  

    The Arian church (generally) didn’t have invalid sacraments but certainly we’re 100% illicit.  Similar to the Anglicans.  Schism/illicitness is not worse than heresy; just a different way to go to hell. 
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #97 on: June 09, 2023, 10:42:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 09, 2023, 10:15:38 AM
    Yeah, in terms of numbers, the Arian crisis was as extensive.  What makes this different is precisely, as you say, that the Pope didn't go Arian (although he was arguably somewhat week and may have compromised, likely under duress).

    Yes, Pope Liberius, for example, was weak, but then one theory is that the Arians kidnapped him, and threatened his life, so he caved and condemned St. Athanasius. It's difficult for me to fathom how so many Catholics back then could fall for the lie of Arius, in that he believed that Christ did not share the same divine nature as God the Father. Like the Modernists of today, it seems that Arius was only doing what he believed to be right. He didn't seem to trust that the Church always had the Truth, and that Truth doesn't change.

    At least back then, Catholics were forced to focus on the specific heresy of Arianism. They didn't get sidetracked by the ideas of sedevacantism. And back then, the violence of the Arians was a good reminder too that what they were dealing with was serious. But Our Lord eventually righted his Church. Thanks to many saints who relied on Our lord, and were willing to work to that effect. And thanks too for a council (Nicaea) that condemned Arius and Arianism.
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #98 on: June 09, 2023, 01:42:31 PM »
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    • Quote from: EWPJ on June 08, 2023, 10:33:52 PM
    There's already an incorrect premise made.  The Church CANNOT Apostasize since it is the Immaculate Bride of Christ BUT people can choose to leave The Church (ie by full blown apostasizing or holding to heresy or being in schism.) 

    Just like The Church didn't apostasize during the Arian crisis, but 97-99% left The Church. 

    Good point.
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