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Poll

When did you change from the R&R position to the sedevacantist position?

I’ve held the sedevacantist position when I first embraced tradition.
18 (50%)
In the last two years.
7 (19.4%)
Since Francis.
5 (13.9%)
Since Ratzinger.
1 (2.8%)
Since JPII
5 (13.9%)

Total Members Voted: 36

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Author Topic: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?  (Read 4527 times)

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Offline Quo vadis Domine

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Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
« Reply #75 on: June 08, 2023, 08:10:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 08, 2023, 06:18:56 AM
    Let it be known that Loudestmouth believes it’s no problem that God could allow the entire Church to follow a false pope.

    Heretic.

    Sean, Not every Catholic is following the degenerate communist dressed in white, but besides that, this great apostasy was predicted. The Church has been expecting this to happen and we are seeing it in real time. 
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #76 on: June 08, 2023, 09:10:22 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 08, 2023, 08:10:49 AM
    Sean, Not every Catholic is following the degenerate communist dressed in white, but besides that, this great apostasy was predicted. The Church has been expecting this to happen and we are seeing it in real time.

    Sean won't address the fact that his position would make Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop de Castro Mayer, and Bishop Williamson heretics.  Instead, he resorts to puerile ad hominems.
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    Offline Pax Vobis

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #77 on: June 08, 2023, 10:18:58 AM »
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    • Quote
    Let it be known that Loudestmouth believes it’s no problem that God could allow the entire Church to follow a false pope.
    :confused:  It’s called free will?  I’ve never met a novus ordo catholic who didn’t know that V2 “relaxed the rules” or who wasn’t happy with the “less strict” church.  Most new Catholics only pay lip service to religion anyways.  


    The serious ones (who have good will) eventually find their way to the FSSP, ICK because they truly care about God.  

    Not many were duped by V2.  Those that were have very low intelligence and God will judge them less stringently.  Most like the “updates”. 
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #78 on: June 08, 2023, 10:57:24 AM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 08, 2023, 09:10:22 AM
    Sean won't address the fact that his position would make Archbishop Lefebvre, Bishop de Castro Mayer, and Bishop Williamson heretics.  Instead, he resorts to puerile ad hominems.
    Only in your whacked out mind.
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    Offline Meg

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #79 on: June 08, 2023, 11:01:08 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 08, 2023, 08:10:49 AM
    Sean, Not every Catholic is following the degenerate communist dressed in white, but besides that, this great apostasy was predicted. The Church has been expecting this to happen and we are seeing it in real time.

    Where in the Deposit of Faith of the Catholic Church does it say that the Church will apostasize? 
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #80 on: June 08, 2023, 11:49:04 AM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 08, 2023, 11:01:08 AM
    Where in the Deposit of Faith of the Catholic Church does it say that the Church will apostasize?

    Meg, I believe the Fathers of the Church are practically unanimous on  this point. Many books on eschatology point this out and of course Sacred Scripture conveys this when speaking of the stars falling from Heaven and the Sun and Moon losing their light. Also, you have our Lord asking if he will find Faith when he returns.
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    For what doth it profit a man, if he gain the whole world, and suffer the loss of his own soul? Or what exchange shall a man give for his soul?

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #81 on: June 08, 2023, 11:52:20 AM »
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    • Quote from: Quo vadis Domine on June 08, 2023, 11:49:04 AM
    Meg, I believe the Fathers of the Church are practically unanimous on  this point. Many books on eschatology point this out and of course Sacred Scripture conveys this when speaking of the stars falling from Heaven and the Sun and Moon losing their light. Also, you have our Lord asking if he will find Faith when he returns.

    So the idea that the Church has apostasized at this point in time is a part of the Deposit of Faith that we are all required to believe?
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    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #82 on: June 08, 2023, 12:28:07 PM »
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    • The “apostasy” of the recent popes and hierarchy can only be used in a casual and uncritical sense.

    Real apostasy involves an explicit renunciation of the Catholic religion, which none of them have made.

    Here’s a video of a Catholic priest ACTUALLY apostatizing:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=g9ksr6Sb_2A&embeds_referring_euri=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cathinfo.com%2F&source_ve_path=MjM4NTE&feature=emb_title 
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #83 on: June 08, 2023, 06:55:44 PM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 08, 2023, 10:57:24 AM
    Only in your whacked out mind.

    So this is what you keep hurling out there when you can't refute the actual argument.  Let's try again, Sean.

    MAJOR:  Legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants is dogmatic fact.
    MINOR 1:  If someone rejects or doubts the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants, he would be a heretic.
    MINOR 2:  +Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer, and +Williamson have publicly expressed doubts about the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants.
    CONCLUSION:  +Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer, and +Williamson were/are heretics.

    Archbishop Lefebvre:  "While we are certain that the faith the Church has taught for 20 centuries cannot contain error, we are much further from absolute certitude that the pope is truly pope."

    So Archbishop Lefebvre held that the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants is less certain than the faith, i.e., that it's not nor has it been dogmatic fact.  One can fill half a page with similar quotes of +Lefebvre saying the same thing, that SV is possible, that he doesn't say that you can't say they're not popes, etc. etc.  If there legitimacy were dogmatic fact, that would preclude any doubt, and any possibility that the See might be vacant.

    Try again, Sean.  But this is typical of you.  When you're completely refuted, you just start hurling childish insults.  What a clown.  You really should be embarrassed by your behavior.
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #84 on: June 08, 2023, 07:39:00 PM »
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    • Quote from: Ladislaus on June 08, 2023, 06:55:44 PM
    So this is what you keep hurling out there when you can't refute the actual argument.  Let's try again, Sean.

    MAJOR:  Legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants is dogmatic fact.
    MINOR 1:  If someone rejects or doubts the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants, he would be a heretic.
    MINOR 2:  +Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer, and +Williamson have publicly expressed doubts about the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants.
    CONCLUSION:  +Lefebvre, +de Castro Mayer, and +Williamson were/are heretics.

    Archbishop Lefebvre:  "While we are certain that the faith the Church has taught for 20 centuries cannot contain error, we are much further from absolute certitude that the pope is truly pope."

    So Archbishop Lefebvre held that the legitimacy of the V2 papal claimants is less certain than the faith, i.e., that it's not nor has it been dogmatic fact.  One can fill half a page with similar quotes of +Lefebvre saying the same thing, that SV is possible, that he doesn't say that you can't say they're not popes, etc. etc.  If there legitimacy were dogmatic fact, that would preclude any doubt, and any possibility that the See might be vacant.

    Try again, Sean.  But this is typical of you.  When you're completely refuted, you just start hurling childish insults.  What a clown.  You really should be embarrassed by your behavior.

    Distinguo:

    Dogmatic facts do not avail themselves of absolute certitude, because they are not, in se, articles of faith.

    Archbishop Lefebvre’s quote only acknowledges that fact.

    Nevertheless, we owe them internal assent, as you have stated many times.  And that Lefebvre yielded that internal assent is certain, in light of his continual rejection of sedevacantism (whereas sedes fail/sin in this regard).
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    Offline Quo vadis Domine

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #85 on: June 08, 2023, 08:10:06 PM »
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    • Quote from: Meg on June 08, 2023, 11:52:20 AM
    So the idea that the Church has apostasized at this point in time is a part of the Deposit of Faith that we are all required to believe?

    No, of course I’m not saying it’s an article of faith, but what does it look like to you? 
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    Offline EWPJ

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #86 on: June 08, 2023, 10:33:52 PM »
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    • There's already an incorrect premise made.  The Church CANNOT Apostasize since it is the Immaculate Bride of Christ BUT people can choose to leave The Church (ie by full blown apostasizing or holding to heresy or being in schism.)  

    Just like The Church didn't apostasize during the Arian crisis, but 97-99% left The Church.  
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    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #87 on: June 08, 2023, 10:59:14 PM »
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    • Quote from: EWPJ on June 08, 2023, 10:33:52 PM
    There's already an incorrect premise made.  The Church CANNOT Apostasize since it is the Immaculate Bride of Christ BUT people can choose to leave The Church (ie by full blown apostasizing or holding to heresy or being in schism.) 

    Just like The Church didn't apostasize during the Arian crisis, but 97-99% left The Church. 

    The error in this statement is manifested by the fact that, were it true, there would be no distinction between heresy and apostasy:

    An apostate is one who formally renounces his religion.

    A heretic is one who “merely” rejects a particular dogma of that religion.
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    Offline Marulus Fidelis

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #88 on: June 09, 2023, 02:45:49 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 08, 2023, 10:59:14 PM
    The error in this statement is manifested by the fact that, were it true, there would be no distinction between heresy and apostasy:

    An apostate is one who formally renounces his religion.

    A heretic is one who “merely” rejects a particular dogma of that religion.

    St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, Pt. II, Q. 12, A. 1, Obj. 2: “… if anyone were to… worship at the tomb of Mahomet, he would be deemed an apostate."
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    Offline Ladislaus

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    Re: Who holds the sedevacantist position and when did they accept it?
    « Reply #89 on: June 09, 2023, 07:37:36 AM »
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    • Quote from: SeanJohnson on June 08, 2023, 07:39:00 PM
    Distinguo:

    Dogmatic facts do not avail themselves of absolute certitude, because they are not, in se, articles of faith.

    Archbishop Lefebvre’s quote only acknowledges that fact.

    Nevertheless, we owe them internal assent, as you have stated many times.  And that Lefebvre yielded that internal assent is certain, in light of his continual rejection of sedevacantism (whereas sedes fail/sin in this regard).

    Sean, that doesn't make any sense.  Dogmatic facts are called "dogmatic" precisely BECAUSE they have the certainty of faith.  You're actually citing the position of those theologians who argue that papal legitimacy can not be certain with the certainty of faith but only with a moral certainty, since the question of who currently occupies the Holy See was obviously not revealed by Our Lord.  So I actually agree with that, but then you're not arguing for the "dogmatic fact" position, but, rather, for the moral certainty position.

    Let me explain what you really mean:

    "Distinguo.  It's heretical for people who call themselves sedevacantists to doubt the papal legitimacy, but it's not heretical for prominent figures of what's commonly known as R&R."  This is really your intent, and it shows your intellectual dishonesty.

    No, Sean.  Dogmatic fact means what it says, that it's dogmatic, owed the assent off faith, which precludes all doubt and has absolute certitude.  Theologian Cardinal Zubizaretta, writing during the reign of Pius XII, stated that those who would deny or doubt the legitimacy of Pope Pius XII are heretics.  He argued against those who stated that papal legitimacy cannot be dogmatic by saying that the legitimacy of Pope Pius XII was "implicitly revealed".

    So, I agree with you that papal legitimacy doesn't admit of absolute certainty, but that means that we're disagreeing with the notion that it's dogmatic fact.  DOGMATIC fact by definition means exactly what is says, that it's dogmatically (aka absolutely) certain.  DOGMATIC certainly precludes all doubt by its very definition.
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