Read an Interview with Matthew, the owner of CathInfo

Author Topic: Who do Sedes think was the last pope?  (Read 2132 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Sigismund

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5364
  • Reputation: +3100/-7
  • Gender: Male
Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
« on: May 05, 2014, 09:12:12 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I would be interested in knowing who sedevacantists on this forum regard as the last real pope. John XXIII, Pius XII, or someone earlier? I respectfully ask non-sede's (like myself) not to hijack this thread into an argument about the merits of sedevacantism or to attack sedevacantists.  

    Thanks.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Luker

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 507
    • Reputation: +639/-0
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #1 on: May 05, 2014, 09:39:29 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Hi Sigismund.  I am sure some of the more experienced posters can jump and give you more details but the short answer, I think, is that everyone agrees that Pius XII was the last 'for sure' pope.  From there things divide.  Some sedevacantists maintain that John XXIII was validly elected and the disputes begin as to exactly when he 'fell'.  Others reject him out of hand.  Pretty much all sedevacantists reject Paul VI as pope, but there is some dispute as to whether he was validly elected and then fell into heresy, or whether he was not validly elected at all.  So in a nutshell:

    Up until 1958, everything okay.

    From 1958-1965 is where all the questions are asked.  I think most sedevacantists are pretty honest in that the fine point of exactly when the See of Peter went vacant and exactly how, will have to be decided definitively by the Church at some later time.  Still in the meantime, while we wait, it keeps things busy discussing, speculating and arguing.

    Hope this helps, at least somewhat...



    Luke
    Pray the Holy Rosary every day!!


    Offline Mabel

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1893
    • Reputation: +1384/-18
    • Gender: Female
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #2 on: May 05, 2014, 09:51:47 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Quote from: Sigismund
    I would be interested in knowing who sedevacantists on this forum regard as the last real pope. John XXIII, Pius XII, or someone earlier? I respectfully ask non-sede's (like myself) not to hijack this thread into an argument about the merits of sedevacantism or to attack sedevacantists.  

    Thanks.


    Pius XII certainly. John XXIII likely, I'm not sure if all of the evidence will ever surface one way or another because his reputation has been revised and polished for the Vatican II religion's agenda.

    Offline Ambrose

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3447
    • Reputation: +2423/-11
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #3 on: May 05, 2014, 11:20:58 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Sigismund,

    A good question, here is a post I wrote recently on this subject:  

    Regarding John XXIII:

    As many posters have already said: many sedevacantists remain unsure about John XXIII, and do not tread there. They will usually just say, "Pope Pius XII was our last certain Pope," leaving open the possibility that John XXIII was a true Pope.

    For myself, as it stands now, I believe the evidence supports his claim to the Papacy.  As a provisional position, I believe that his claim to the Papacy was most likely legitimate for the following reasons:

    1. He was universally and peacefully accepted by the Church.
    2. He was accepted by the Roman Clergy whom he ruled.
    3. He was peacefully accepted by the hierarchy.
    4. He never professed a public heresy.
    5. He never taught any heresy or grave error against the Faith.
    6. He never promulgated an evil universal disciplinary law.
    7. He never signed the documents of Vatican II, he was long deceased before the end of the Council.
    8. There is evidence to support the idea that he wanted the Council stopped.
    9. The Holy Office under John XXIII continued to function as it should, with Cardinal Ottaviani as it's prefect.
    10. All other functions of the Roman Curia and all dioceses continued to function properly and peacefully, during the reign of John XXIII.
    11. It is a fact that overall, Catholics throughout the world in the 1950's and up until the death of John XXIII were completely oblivious to the fact that the Church was on the verge of a major revolution. No one grasped this until the ascendency of Paul VI, as the Council was already hijacked and the battle between the orthodox bishops and theologians (periti) vs. the liberals were becoming more public.


    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Sigismund

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5364
    • Reputation: +3100/-7
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #4 on: May 06, 2014, 09:00:07 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thanks.  I would very much like to hear from other sedevacantists here.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 17568
    • Reputation: +9858/-4292
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #5 on: May 06, 2014, 10:04:31 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Well, I for one believe that the 1958 conclave was hijacked and that Siri was elected, making Roncalli "uncanonically elected".

    Roncalli was suspect of modernism and considered a Communist sympathizer if not agent.  One high-ranking Freemason claimed that Roncalli was inducted into Masonry in Paris (which have rendered him excommunicated).  Masonic newspapers hailed his election.

    In one of his early encyclicals he referred cryptically to a "mysterious force" rising in the world.  "Mysterious Force" is the original name for Freemasonry.

    Offline Emitte Lucem Tuam

    • Jr. Member
    • **
    • Posts: 280
    • Reputation: +254/-15
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #6 on: May 07, 2014, 09:02:45 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • We have this picture of the Holy Father hanging in the sacristy of the chapel I attend and it's the only papal portrait on display.  Most, if not all consider Pope Pius XII the last Pope without question at my chapel:







    Offline JohnAnthonyMarie

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 1297
    • Reputation: +603/-61
    • Gender: Male
      • TraditionalCatholic.net
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #7 on: May 07, 2014, 10:08:15 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Not Giovanni Battista Montini



    (overt Masonic handshake)
    Omnes pro Christo


    Offline OHCA

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2813
    • Reputation: +1839/-107
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #8 on: May 08, 2014, 12:39:06 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Pope Pius XII

    Possibly Pope Gregory XVII

    Offline TKGS

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 4498
    • Reputation: +3870/-339
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #9 on: May 08, 2014, 06:58:09 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • I regard Pius XII as certainly a true pope.

    I regard John 23 as probably a true pope.  I have heard the various arguments against his claim to the papacy, but the evidence does not seem to be very concrete.  The Siri Thesis is also, to my view, weak, for Cardinal Siri never seemed to do any public action that would indicate that he claimed the papacy.  On the other hand, John 23 did start the ball towards apostasy rolling and the new ecumenism certainly was his view of doctrine, but was it truly manifest as required to truly fall from the papacy?  I don't know.  This is the reason I generally use the year 1960 as the Line of Demarcation as to what is safe and what is not to be considered safe.

    Most of Ambrose's points are pretty accurate.  I would, however, take issue with point number 8:

    Quote
    8. There is evidence to support the idea that he wanted the Council stopped.


    It seems the evidence for this point is nill.  It seems to be anecdotal with origins long after his death.  It seems to be based on rumors--the same as the evidence that he was formally a Freemason.

    I am not convinced that he was pope, nor am I convinced that he was not.

    If Paul 6 was ever pope, he most certainly was not when he signed to Council documents that proclaim heresy as the teaching of the Catholic Church.

    Offline Lover of Truth

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 8480
    • Reputation: +1089/-825
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #10 on: May 08, 2014, 09:01:27 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • For me it is much easier to just say Pius XII was the last valid Pope but I believe we may have had a Pope until November 21st 1964.  What is beyond question is that the documents in V2 after Lumen Gentium have things in them that cannot be interpreted as anything other than heresy, and that a valid Pope cannot render the sacraments invalid or doubtful as was done in 1968 and that a valid Pope could not have foisted the new Mass upon us as was done in 1969.  The Mass that was foisted upon us in 1967 also could not have been done by a valid Pope.

    All the stuff that has since happened, watering down the exorcism rite (does anyone other than me find this incredible even for one trying to pass himself off as a legitimate Pope!), approving a consecration rite as being a valid consecration without it even having a consecration formula, (incredible!  This does not have anyone questioning the legitimacy of JP2?), having an out and out lie about the 3rd secret of Fatima approved by a Pope, canon law allowing heretics to receive the sacrament of unity the Holy Eucharist.  No longer being able to proselytize  the Orthodox or Jews, canonizations of anti-Catholics.  All that shows that the Holy Ghost no longer had a valid Pope to protect from fallibility by the time the first documents after Lumen Gentium were approved in 1965.  

    So IMO the important thing for us now is that there is no way we have had a valid Pope since 1965.  And if you want proof look at what has been officially approved by the false Popes since, starting with the V"2" council itself.  There begins the endless stream of head-scratching.  The head is scratch because we know valid Pope "could not have done that" but the guy claiming to be Pope did in fact do "that".  Whatever the that might be from worshiping with heretics repeatedly to repeated acts of binding on the Church what certainly cannot be bound in Heaven.   Either we have not had a Pope since the council or the Holy Ghost quit his job.  It is one or the other.  
    "I receive Thee, redeeming Prince of my soul. Out of love for Thee have I studied, watched through many nights, and exerted myself: Thee did I preach and teach. I have never said aught against Thee. Nor do I persist stubbornly in my views. If I have ever expressed myself erroneously on this Sacrament, I submit to the judgement of the Holy Roman Church, in obedience of which I now part from this world." Saint Thomas Aquinas the greatest Doctor of the Church


    Offline Sigismund

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5364
    • Reputation: +3100/-7
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #11 on: May 10, 2014, 09:25:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Thanks to everyone for replying.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir

    Offline Tiffany

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 3111
    • Reputation: +1639/-27
    • Gender: Female
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #12 on: May 10, 2014, 11:37:25 PM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • No clue but I know the ones since I've been Catholic weren't teaching Christian things.

    Offline Cantarella

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 7782
    • Reputation: +4568/-575
    • Gender: Female
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #13 on: May 17, 2014, 12:24:20 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Most sedevacantists claim that the last pope was Pius XII and that Pope John XXIII (Cardinal Roncalli) was invalidly elected because he was a heretic prior to claiming the papal throne. But according to the Ecclesiastical Law, in order for Cardinal Roncalli‚Äôs election to the papacy to have been invalidated for heresy, Pope Pius XII would have had to judge that Cardinal Roncalli was a heretic, since Pius XII is sole judge of his Cardinals under canons 1557 and 1558 of the 1917 Code of Canon Law. But he did not.
    If anyone says that true and natural water is not necessary for baptism and thus twists into some metaphor the words of our Lord Jesus Christ" Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit" (Jn 3:5) let him be anathema.

    Offline RomanCatholic1953

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 5962
    • Reputation: +2114/-48
    • Gender: Male
    Who do Sedes think was the last pope?
    « Reply #14 on: May 17, 2014, 01:14:42 AM »
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Pope Pius XII, was the last valid Pope.

    Go to the "Crises of the Church" and listen to part 1 of the audio interview
    from yesterday, Jim Condit, Jr. on the Explaining the "Siri Thesis", and the
    Eclipse of the Church.

     

    Sitemap 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16