Catholic Info
Traditional Catholic Faith => Crisis in the Church => Topic started by: RobertS on September 05, 2024, 02:52:17 AM
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So let's take stock of the traditional movement as it exists in this Year of Our Lord 2024. Let's also do some planning and projections etc to where we see Tradition growing in the next 10 years, i.e. by roughly 2033, the 2000th Anniversary of Christ's Crucifixion/Resurrection, and in the next 25 years. By 2050 or so.
SSPX: Some 700 Priests. 3 Bishops. Some 10 MN faithful. Would probably cross 1000 Priests by 2033, and maybe 10,000 by 2050. Faithful might grow correspondingly by about 15 times to around 150 million or so.
FSSP/Indult/ICK/Diocesan TLMs/Motu Masses: Probably at least 10,000 of the world's 400,000+ Priests (2.5%). Some 100 MN faithful. Will probably grow to at least 50,000 Priests, and so hopefully some 500 MN faithful (5X increase), by 2050, the way the TLM is growing and spreading within the Roman Catholic Church.
Resistance: ??? (others who know can fill in. I'm not Resistance). How many Priests? I think some 6 Bishops IIRC.
SVs/Sedes: ???
Miscellaneous independent groups: ???
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At the time of the Arian crisis you would be talking about how much "fruit" you Arians have. Get lost Siscoe you faithless anti-Catholic.
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Is it just me or is anyone else starting to get a whiff of Xavier here?
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Siscoe, Xavier, what's next? Salza? Sammons? Tim Flanders? Anything to avoid addressing the issue. +ABL appealed to fruits many times, fruits show that an apostolate is the work of God and has had the blessing of God and is operating under the right principles. Our Lord Jesus Christ Himself told us to know a tree by its fruits, therefore we can.
Except I see you registered only 9 days after Xavier's last sock puppet account, SaintPeter, got banned. Yeah, I still place my bet that you're Xavier/Nishant.
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FSSP/Indult/ICK/Diocesan TLMs/Motu Masses: Probably at least 10,000 of the world's 400,000+ Priests (2.5%). Some 100 MN faithful. Will probably grow to at least 50,000 Priests, and so hopefully some 500 MN faithful (5X increase), by 2050, the way the TLM is growing and spreading within the Roman Catholic Church.
Not sure where these figures even come from, but the crooks in charge that are still the "Guardians of Tradition," aka Traditionis C (https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/motu_proprio/docuмents/20210716-motu-proprio-traditionis-custodes.html)ustodes (https://www.vatican.va/content/francesco/en/motu_proprio/docuмents/20210716-motu-proprio-traditionis-custodes.html), are striving to keep the FSSP/Indult/etc. from growing at all.
Growing at all, let alone 5x by 2050, is clearly going against the expressed written instructions issued by the pope himself who said, among other things: "to take care not to authorize the establishment of new groups."
Note that first and foremost, the requirement of TC which must be adhered to in order to celebrate the TLM at all, is for the bishops to make sure that these Indulters accept the validity and legitimacy of the NO liturgy - which clearly is against the law of Quo Primum
This mean that the pope established that in order to have the TLM at all, Indulters must first be in good standing in the Conciliar Church, for this, TC states that you must:
1) accept the Council and 2) accept the New Mass.
Thus, he used his office to command acceptance of V2 and all the reforms of it. Which is to say that he is saying "if you want the TLM, I will allow it provided you first deny the faith."
Far as I know, you used to know these things.
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Whats about the Novus Ordo's fruits?
The total colapse of catholic faith and moral. Even in the Nations that remained catholics in the 60's such as Spain.
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Is it just me or is anyone else starting to get a whiff of Xavier here?
Beat me to it, 2V! :laugh1:
I do hope that you and your family are doing well, Xavier. May God bless you.
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"which clearly is against the law of Quo Primum"
Lol. Quo Primum does not say any other Mass can never be legitimate, otherwise all the Eastern rites are also illegitimate, as are also the more than 200 year old Western rites that Quo Primum allowed to continue to exist. The New Mass is valid but inferior. This is the classical Indult traditionalist position beautifully articulated by both +ABL himself (in the early days especially) and by Fr. Ripperger too. This position is compatible with the Church's indefectibility and is accepted by Rome. The opinion that the NOM is like a Black Mass is not, because that opinion denies the Church's indefectibility. Still, in the 1988 Protocol, which +ABL signed, all that was asked for is to confess that the New Mass is valid to reconcile with Rome. The FSSP signed the same protocol minus the provision for a Bishop.
Vatican II is non-infallible and can be respectfully question. But non-infallible Magisterium cannot be heretical. Not possible.
That's right, it's against the law of Quo Primum - clearly. Certainly you've read it so I won't quote it, but the TLM is the Liturgy of the Roman Rite in perpetuity. No pope or bishop can legally prohibit or limit it for any reason. That's the law. The conditions laid out in TC for permitting the TLM is wrong because they are against the law of QP.
V2, whatever it was, whether you want to call it a Council or a simple gathering of bishops and protestants, was heretical, but the Church's Magisterium is always immune from error. What the pope(s) and all the conciliar bishops in unison teach, is wrong - it is through the Church's Magisterium that we know this. The Church's indefectibility is not affected, but if you think it would be or is, then you don't understand these things you're talking about.
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FSSP/Indult/ICK/Diocesan TLMs/Motu Masses: Probably at least 10,000 of the world's 400,000+ Priests (2.5%). Some 100 MN faithful. Will probably grow to at least 50,000 Priests, and so hopefully some 500 MN faithful (5X increase), by 2050, the way the TLM is growing and spreading within the Roman Catholic Church.
Nice try making things up, aka lying, and pretending your bogus "predictions" represents stats somehow. There's no way the Indult/Motu movement will "probably grow" given that Jorge is aggressively shutting them down. Cleveland Diocese here used to have a half dozen and they're down to 2, and those are pending appeal to Jorge (which they're expecting to be denied).
Of course, you also neglected that there would be no FSSP/Indult/ICK/Motu had it not been for Archbishop Lefebvre, SSPX ... this is admitted even by the Conciliars, so you could chalk these up to the fruits of +Lefebvre. Conciliars have always despised the Tridentine Mass and only have made allowances in an attempt to neutralize the Traditional movement (admitted even of Ratzinger by Ganswein).
Of course, you say nothing of the fact that the vast majority of these are invalid Masses (due to Bogus Ordo fake Holy Orders) and in an environment that's been infected thoroughly by heresy, the Conciliar heresies which even if some percentages of them secretly reject while attending the Motus, the vast majority are infected with.
I'm not sure why someone doesn't ban this schismatic/heretic scuм who claims that Traditional Catholics (aka actual Catholics) are schismatics but then ignores the heresies and schism (from Tradition) by the Conciliar apostasy.
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Is it just me or is anyone else starting to get a whiff of Xavier here?
Despite his denials, this dirtbag stinks of Siscoe (Robert S). Not sure why he's still around where he's declared Traditional Catholics to be schismatics.
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Scuм like this guy and his ilk will go down in infamy as the pathetic, weak, cowardly, traitorous enablers of and apologists for this great apostasy and takeover of the Church. Infamous traitors are usually treated with greater derision and disgust afterwards in history than the actual direct enemies, since there's something incredibly cowardly about a compromiser ... along the lines of the type that need to be vomited forth because they're neither hot nor cold. This compromising stance of trying to pretend to be a Trad and at the same time pretend to be Conciliar represents precisely the formula for creating the lukewarm mixture that needs to be spewed from the Body of Christ with great contempt. I have more respect for a Jorge Bergoglio or a Tucho than these pathetic fools, since at least they don't pretend to be something they're not.
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RobertS plan is to grow the Vat II mission of blessing same sex unions, all religions equal, Jews don't need Christ, etc and then support all the Vat II Priests that remain silent while the apostasy grows and refuse to join the remnant of the faithful that stay true to The Dogma of the Faith.
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Strawman. And schismatic. Indult traditionalists are Catholics and to accuse us of being heretical is (1) false and (2) schismatic, because it's schismatic to deny fellow Catholics are Catholics and call them heretics. The Arians denied the Dogmas of Christ's Divinity and the Holy Trinity. What dogma we deny? Prove that we deny a single one. You will never be able to. You sedes on the other hand hold heretical opinions about 60-70 year Papal vacancies, which slowly leads to the heresy of denying the Dogmas of Apostolicity and Perpetual Successors to St. Peter. I'm not Siscoe, though you can keep thinking I am if you want, and I'm not going to respond to speculations about my identity. Address the actual substance of the argument if you can. Christ said: "You will know them by their fruits".
Do SVs like you have any plan at all for the next 25 years if Christ does not return? Is it just "waiting for the chastisement"? Bad, negative pessimistic eschatology has actual real world consequences, including lack of fruits.Sad.
I upvoted this by mistake. I just want to let you know that I detest everything you write, lest you thought that somebody here approves your opposition to known truth, pressumption, rationalism, conciliarism, et c..
May God remove the veil of heresy and pride from your heart.
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Lol. Stubborn, yes I've read Quo Primum. Have you, carefully? Read this part:
"This new rite alone is to be used unless approval of the practice of saying Mass differently was given at the very time of the institution and confirmation of the church by Apostolic See at least 200 years ago, or unless there has prevailed a custom of a similar kind which has been continuously followed for a period of not less than 200 years, in which most cases We in no wise rescind their above-mentioned prerogative or custom. However, if this Missal, which we have seen fit to publish, be more agreeable to these latter, We grant them permission to celebrate Mass according to its rite, provided they have the consent of their bishop or prelate or of their whole Chapter, everything else to the contrary notwithstanding". https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius05/p5quopri.htm
So Quo Primum itself grants various exceptions.
Obviously the NO liturgy was not around before Quo Primum.
Also, Quo Primum, when established by His Holiness Pope St. Pius V, was binding on all Bishops and Priests to obey the Pope. But it does not bind all the Pope's Successors, who equally have the power of the keys. I do agree no Pope can ever ban the TLM though, as Bishop Athanasius has also said, anymore than he can ban the Apostles' Creed. We have the right to respectfully resist that.
Yes, it does in fact bind all the pope's successors because of what it is.
Your opinion about the Magisterium is wrong and not even Fr. Wathen agreed with you on that if I recall right. Magisterium does not mean teachings. It means teaching office or teaching authority. If you knew Latin, you'd know this. All theologians know this and teaching you that, including all Pre-Vatican II theologians unanimously. But then you'd believe all of them are wrong ...
The Magisterium is, per Pope St. Pius IX in Tuas Libenter: "points of doctrine which, with common and constant consent, are held in the Church as truths and as theological conclusions so certain that opposing opinions, though they may not be dubbed heretical, nonetheless, merit some other form of theological censure."
Note the requirement of being both, "common and constant." The V2 church of the new pentecost did away with "constant," so now whatever everyone all teaches in unison with the pope is infallible, which is apparently what you believe.
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:clown:
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RobertS plan is to grow the Vat II mission of blessing same sex unions, all religions equal, Jews don't need Christ, etc and then support all the Vat II Priests that remain silent while the apostasy grows and refuse to join the remnant of the faithful that stay true to The Dogma of the Faith.
Correct. He wants us to convert us to that religion. That's his "activism". He feels no need to convert the 95%+ of Conciliars who are open heretics by their own polling data.
But, then, Siscoe, why are you trying to prosletyze / convert us? Jorge denounced your efforts as wicked and sinful.
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RobertS plan is to grow the Vat II mission of blessing same sex unions, all religions equal, Jews don't need Christ, etc and then support all the Vat II Priests that remain silent while the apostasy grows and refuse to join the remnant of the faithful that stay true to The Dogma of the Faith.
Now this is a new member I can get on board with! Welcome!
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FSSP/Indult/ICK/Diocesan TLMs/Motu Masses: Probably at least 10,000 of the world's 400,000+ Priests (2.5%). Some 100 MN faithful. Will probably grow to at least 50,000 Priests, and so hopefully some 500 MN faithful (5X increase), by 2050, the way the TLM is growing and spreading within the Roman Catholic Church.
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What are the fruits of the Indult? Well, a large percentage of those people are living in adultery that is sanctioned by their false religion, and receive the sacraments. The Indult completely accepts the fake marriage annulments that are contrary to Catholic teaching and practice on marriage for almost 2,000 years before Vatican 2. Sure, they like Latin and chant, but they love their divorce/remarriage system as well, and defend it and practice it.
One case is too many, but in the Indult there are a significant percentage of people who live in church-sanctioned adultery, and receive the sacraments with the blessing of the clergy. Even the ones who don't still believe in practice that they can abandon their spouse if they want to without committing sin, as long as they don't get "married" again.
Since you asked, these are extremely rotten fruits.
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What are the fruits of the Indult? Well, a large percentage of those people are living in adultery ...
Nah, come on. "Fruits" are based on raw numbers. In that case, Islam bears greater "fruit" than Traditional Catholicism, and even Motarianism, as do many Protestant denominations.
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Nope still a sinner. Weakness + forgetfulness = total dependence on God's Grace and mercy.
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A tree can produce 1,000,000 apples, but if they are all rotten on the stem, it does not bear good fruit.
You are comparing quantities as if that implies quality. Just because someone goes to the Latin Mass does not mean that they are Catholic.
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Whats about the Novus Ordo's fruits?
The total colapse of catholic faith and moral. Even in the Nations that remained catholics in the 60's such as Spain.
Numbers are all that matter. Faith? Who needs that? /s
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So let's take stock of the traditional movement as it exists in this Year of Our Lord 2024. Let's also do some planning and projections etc to where we see Tradition growing in the next 10 years, i.e. by roughly 2033, the 2000th Anniversary of Christ's Crucifixion/Resurrection, and in the next 25 years. By 2050 or so.
SSPX: Some 700 Priests. 3 Bishops. Some 10 MN faithful. Would probably cross 1000 Priests by 2033, and maybe 10,000 by 2050. Faithful might grow correspondingly by about 15 times to around 150 million or so.
FSSP/Indult/ICK/Diocesan TLMs/Motu Masses: Probably at least 10,000 of the world's 400,000+ Priests (2.5%). Some 100 MN faithful. Will probably grow to at least 50,000 Priests, and so hopefully some 500 MN faithful (5X increase), by 2050, the way the TLM is growing and spreading within the Roman Catholic Church.
Resistance: ??? (others who know can fill in. I'm not Resistance). How many Priests? I think some 6 Bishops IIRC.
SVs/Sedes: ???
Miscellaneous independent groups: ???
Your numbers for the Latin Mass in the Novus Ordo is overestimated. The actual TLM is 1529 or so, based on https://www.latinmassdir.org/countries/. There are not 10000 priests saying the Latin Mass.
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Your numbers for the Latin Mass in the Novus Ordo is overestimated. The actual TLM is 1529 or so, based on https://www.latinmassdir.org/countries/. There are not 10000 priests saying the Latin Mass.
Not to mention that he completely makes up his projections for "future growth", given that Jorge is actively suppressing the Tridentine Mass. As mentioned, in Cleveland it's down from 6 to 2 ... and the 2 remaining are under appeal and likely to be rejected. So only 1 ICK and 1 FSSP will be left standing.
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There is no way in hell that the SSPX has 10 million attendees. I doubt they even have 500k.
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There is no way in hell that the SSPX has 10 million attendees. I doubt they even have 500k.
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Yes, the statistics in the OP were definitely off by at least a decimal place, most of them. Some looked like they were off by two decimal places.
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The SSPX (before 2012) and Resistance (after 2012) by far has had the best fruits, and is the best position for riding out the Crisis in the Church.
Second choice would be sedevacantism.
Next would be Indult.
Closely after that would be "conservative Conciliar/Novus Ordo".
But those bottom two give you virtually no chance of surviving the Crisis with your Faith intact, saving your soul, and/or passing on the Faith to your children.
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The SSPX (before 2012) and Resistance (after 2012) by far has had the best fruits, and is the best position for riding out the Crisis in the Church.
Second choice would be sedevacantism.
Next would be Indult.
Closely after that would be "conservative Conciliar/Novus Ordo".
But those bottom two give you virtually no chance of surviving the Crisis with your Faith intact, saving your soul, and/or passing on the Faith to your children.
Then what are their "best fruits"? This doesn't make sense to me.
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Then what are their "best fruits"? This doesn't make sense to me.
Exactly. The indults greatest rotten fruit, eclipsing all others, is keeping people away from the true faith.
Speaking of the good fruits of the Indult is like speaking about the good fruits of Anglicanism.
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Then what are their "best fruits"? This doesn't make sense to me.
In a roundabout or backhanded way, serving as mileposts on the path to True Tradition? Lots of folks here have taken that route.
And while we're speaking of fruits, the Galatians 5:22-23 list is the only one that matters. Not crude numbers or worldly inventories.
But the fruit of the Spirit is, charity, joy, peace, patience, benignity, goodness, longanimity, Mildness, faith, modesty, continency, chastity.
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Exactly. The indults greatest rotten fruit, eclipsing all others, is keeping people away from the true faith.
Speaking of the good fruits of the Indult is like speaking about the good fruits of Anglicanism.
Or corralling by attraction and attrition. Yellowjackets will swarm on rotten fruit, but honeybees know what's what.
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In a roundabout or backhanded way, serving as mileposts on the path to True Tradition? Lots of folks here have taken that route.
And while we're speaking of fruits, the Galatians 5:22-23 list is the only one that matters. Not crude numbers or worldly inventories.
Yes, many people have taken a route to groups that hold the True Faith from groups that do not hold the True Faith, but then the fruits should be assigned to where they went, not from where they came from.
I agree with your second point. Xavier has always focused on quantity/numbers.
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Yes, many people have taken a route to groups that hold the True Faith from groups that do not hold the True Faith, but then the fruits should be assigned to where they went, not from where they came from.
I agree with your second point. Xavier likes numbers.
Correct, which is why I wrote "backhanded".
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Correct, which is why I wrote "backhanded".
I understand. But would we say the same thing about the Anglican church (like MF said)?
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I understand. But would we say the same thing about the Anglican church (like MF said)?
I wouldn't give the Anglicans credit as Anglicans. But to the extent that a person can discern that where he's landed isn't where he should be, then we're thankful for whichever way Our Lord gives us. Eventually it all makes perfect sense, though not always during this mortal life.
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You know what rum? You don't know where you would be today if you were her and/or, while I'm at it, JayneK - likely still a jew.
You should be very cautious with your calumnies against those who certainly had to be specially favored by God, Who gave special graces to certain ones who were more in need and are more especially loved by Him....than the 99 who have no need.
Always remember and imagine that it could just as easily have been you who had to choose which path to take - and you do not know if you would have ever gotten off the wide road you were already on to take the dingy, narrow path they thankfully chose to take.
Same goes for the Indult folks - if that's all I ever knew or had, I would probably be among those who think it is the only right way to go. God may (or may not) find them guilty for a certain degree of sloth for not continuing to seek and search their way out of that situation, i.e. out of all things NO including the Indult. Perhaps when the conciliar bosses completely ban it will be their test, hopefully they will all pass.
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, but I like reminding people about what kind of creature she/he/it is.
About the only thing that you are succeeding in doing, Rum, is to reveal to everyone what kind of creature you are; regardless whether you are a she, a he, or an it.
For what it's worth, I'll remember you in :pray:.
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Thank you, Gentlemen.
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Which has the highest per capita priestly and religious vocations?
In my experience, indult has very little vocations, and SSPX and CMRI has a lot (per capita).
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Which has the highest per capita priestly and religious vocations?
In my experience, indult has very little vocations, and SSPX and CMRI has a lot (per capita).
Yeah, and what about the pedo SSPX superior of the largest district in the world? Does he count into the per capita vocations? Give me a break...
If I got consecrated tomorrow, by the end of the year I could surpass the SSPX's priest numbers. Can't promise to surpass its sodomite pedo rate though, they're in a league of their own there.
What wonderful fruits...
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Yeah, and what about the pedo SSPX superior of the largest district in the world? Does he count into the per capita vocations? Give me a break...
If I got consecrated tomorrow, by the end of the year I could surpass the SSPX's priest numbers. Can't promise to surpass its sodomite pedo rate though, they're in a league of their own there.
What wonderful fruits...
The problem with the emphasis in modern times on the "loving Jesus" is that such an approach to God attracts weirdo females and weirdo males. I've always been more attracted to the punishing and ruthless God. Especially ruthless towards the people who called for His crucifixion and put their blood on the line in the bargain.
It's astonishing, but shouldn't be, that any man who wants to join a seminary, who gives off the slightest whiff of effeminacy, is accepted. Lavender mafia, created by their freak mommies.
Be suspicious of "sensitive" males. They're almost always self-lovers.
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The problem with the emphasis in modern times on the "loving Jesus" is that such an approach to God attracts weirdo females and weirdo males. I've always been more attracted to the punishing and ruthless God. Especially ruthless towards the people who called for His crucifixion and put their blood on the line in the bargain.
It's astonishing, but shouldn't be, that any man who wants to join a seminary, who gives off the slightest whiff of effeminacy, is accepted. Lavender mafia, created by their freak mommies.
Be suspicious of "sensitive" males. They're almost always self-lovers.
While I agree with your disgust with self affirming gαys, the lack of balance in regards to the human condition smacks of youthful ignorance or "ex smoker " vigilance. Be hard on yourself and try to excuse others.
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While I agree with your disgust with self affirming gαys, the lack of balance in regards to the human condition smacks of youthful ignorance or "ex smoker " vigilance. Be hard on yourself and try to excuse others.
Just had a dip into your archive, not being familiar with you. Your schtick is the sensitive guy who bathes in the minutiae of traddom. I was searching hard for just one of your posts that was meaningful.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhzDgWRv/Screenshot-2024-09-08-113824.png)
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Just had a dip into your archive, not being familiar with you. Your schtick is the sensitive guy who bathes in the minutiae of traddom. I was searching hard for just one of your posts that was meaningful.
(https://i.postimg.cc/RhzDgWRv/Screenshot-2024-09-08-113824.png)
No problem.
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Sedes
Sedes Lead The Way...
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We are Catholics. We need to evangelize and correct our brothers and sisters in Jesus Christ without compromising our faith. Irish proverb is United is strength.
Yes, “unite the clans”.