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Author Topic: Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?  (Read 3604 times)

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Offline Kephapaulos

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Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
« on: December 02, 2012, 08:45:39 PM »
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  • I was wondering which other chapels use the St. Pius X Missal besides those of St. Gertrude the Great in Ohio, the SSPV, St. Athanasius in Vienna, Virginia, and Our Lady Help of Christians in Garden Grove, California.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)


    Offline Sigismund

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #1 on: December 03, 2012, 07:31:16 PM »
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  • I believe all the CMRI chapels do.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline Pyrrhos

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #2 on: December 04, 2012, 12:23:34 AM »
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  • Quote from: Sigismund
    I believe all the CMRI chapels do.



    This is not correct, in fact they are the only major sedevacantist group which uses the so called 1955 Missal.
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline Kephapaulos

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #3 on: December 04, 2012, 12:25:57 AM »
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  • Quote from: Pyrrhos
    Quote from: Sigismund
    I believe all the CMRI chapels do.



    This is not correct, in fact they are the only major sedevacantist group which uses the so called 1955 Missal.


    Yes. I had thought that they use the Pius XII/1958 rubrics.
    "Non nobis, Domine, non nobis; sed nomini tuo da gloriam..." (Ps. 113:9)

    Offline Sigismund

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #4 on: December 04, 2012, 12:02:20 PM »
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  • Thanks for the correction.
    Stir up within Thy Church, we beseech Thee, O Lord, the Spirit with which blessed Josaphat, Thy Martyr and Bishop, was filled, when he laid down his life for his sheep: so that, through his intercession, we too may be moved and strengthen by the same Spir


    Offline ora pro me

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #5 on: December 04, 2012, 12:23:45 PM »
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  • Quote from: Pyrrhos
    Quote from: Sigismund
    I believe all the CMRI chapels do.



    This is not correct, in fact they are the only major sedevacantist group which uses the so called 1955 Missal.


    Do you have verification of this that you can share? Is that info on their website?

    Offline Pyrrhos

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #6 on: December 04, 2012, 12:55:06 PM »
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  • Quote from: ora pro me
    Quote from: Pyrrhos
    Quote from: Sigismund
    I believe all the CMRI chapels do.



    This is not correct, in fact they are the only major sedevacantist group which uses the so called 1955 Missal.


    Do you have verification of this that you can share? Is that info on their website?



    I have attended and served Mass at CMRI chapels for about two years, including Holy Week, and surely other forum members could testify their usage of the latest liturgical promulgations of Pius XII.

    One of their Mass-centres has a homepage mentioning it on the bottom of the page:

    http://www.ourladyofthesnow.net/faq.htm
    If you are a theologian, you truly pray, and if you truly pray, you are a theologian. - Evagrius Ponticus

    Offline ora pro me

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #7 on: December 04, 2012, 03:27:11 PM »
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  • Thank you.  That link was very informative and also at the bottom of the page there is this link to a PDF:

    http://www.ourladyofthesnow.net/assets/pdf/holy_week_orders.pdf


    Offline Viva Cristo Rey

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #8 on: December 04, 2012, 04:33:17 PM »
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  • Quote from: Kephapaulos
    I was wondering which other chapels use the St. Pius X Missal besides those of St. Gertrude the Great in Ohio, the SSPV, St. Athanasius in Vienna, Virginia, and Our Lady Help of Christians in Garden Grove, California.



    St. Mary the Virgin Chapel, Paulsboro, New Jersey-USA
    May God bless you and keep you

    Offline Neil Obstat

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #9 on: December 06, 2012, 01:02:37 PM »
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  • Quote from: Viva Cristo Rey
    Quote from: Kephapaulos
    I was wondering which other chapels use the St. Pius X Missal besides those of St. Gertrude the Great in Ohio, the SSPV, St. Athanasius in Vienna, Virginia, and Our Lady Help of Christians in Garden Grove, California.



    St. Mary the Virgin Chapel, Paulsboro, New Jersey-USA



    OLHC in Orange County is the center but Mass is offered in other
    places, and it's always the same missal and rubrics.  There are 4
    priests.  And there have been a number of others, I don't know how
    many, who have come from various parts of the world to learn how to
    offer the Canonized Traditional Latin Mass as it was from time
    immemorial up until 1954
    , when the nefarious Bugnini began the
    devil's work from his high office in Rome, under the authority of Pope
    Pius XII, who was not physically well and only had 4 more years to live.

    Other places where Mass is offered include for example, St. Patrick
    Mission in Northridge CA (Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation),
    Ventura (near the San Buenaventura Mission - most Sundays and Holy
    Days of Obligation), Bakersfield (on announcement apparently),
    Mission Hills (Requiem Masses, usually at Utter McKinley Mortuary
    across the street from the San Fernando Mission, but once in a while
    at the Old Mission Chapel itself).  Also in various funeral homes on
    appointment, including Saddleback Chapel in Tustin, CA, also Orange
    Cty.  These are all done by 3 of the priests at present, who rotate
    duties.  It is basically the schedule that was formerly accomplished by
    the one priest who started this circuit, Fr. Frederick Schell, +2002.  

    Fr. Shell had been using the 1962 missal as I recall, but when he had
    been looking for someone to take his place as he knew he had only a
    limited time to live (medical condition) he interviewed a number of
    candidates and settled on Fr. Perez, knowing about his preference for
    the longstanding rubrics and earlier missal.  There is a bishop in India
    that was very impressed with Fr. Perez' work, who, after a few years
    came to visit and he presented Fr. with a surprise:  he is now
    Monsignor Perez.  He has explained that he is not aware of any
    precedence for an independent priest to be so honored.  

    Speaking of New Jersey, one of Msgr's three assistant priests is from
     "Jersey."  


    .--. .-.-.- ... .-.-.- ..-. --- .-. - .... . -.- .. -. --. -.. --- -- --..-- - .... . .--. --- .-- . .-. .- -. -.. -....- -....- .--- ..- ... - -.- .. -.. -.. .. -. --. .-.-.

    Offline Ambrose

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #10 on: December 07, 2012, 06:20:31 PM »
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  • Quote
    under the authority of Pope
    Pius XII, who was not physically well and only had 4 more years to live.


    This statement is false.  Pope Pius XII was gravely ill in 1954, and was on his deathbed.  After receiving a vision from Our Lord, the Pope by all appearances of a miracle regained his health and began gaining weight again.  He was back to full health by the time he approved the Holy Week Revisions.

    In 1956, in an Address before thousands, he praised the 1955 Holy Week Rites.  The Pope kept a very busy schedule until shortly before his death in October 1958.  

    I find it interesting that so many want to isolate this specific reform when the Pope made so many other reforms that are very happily accepted such as the 3 hour communion fast.

    All of these facts can be verified by reading the biographies of the Pope or reading the "the Pope Speaks," which kept a chronicle of his activities and speeches for his entire pontificate.
    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic


    Offline Quo Vadis Petre

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #11 on: December 07, 2012, 11:33:02 PM »
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  • What's wrong with doing so? Msgr. Gromier heavily lambasted the 1955 Holy Week reforms.

    The Pope praised the Holy Week rites, because he totally trusted Msgr. Augustino Bea and Fr. Bugnini in reforming it.
    "In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics." -St. Pius X

    "If the Church were not divine, this

    Offline Ambrose

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #12 on: December 09, 2012, 01:10:11 AM »
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  • Quote from: Quo Vadis Petre
    What's wrong with doing so? Msgr. Gromier heavily lambasted the 1955 Holy Week reforms.

    The Pope praised the Holy Week rites, because he totally trusted Msgr. Augustino Bea and Fr. Bugnini in reforming it.


    The principle is this:  Love the Pope, trust the Pope, do not disagree with or doubt the Pope.  
    "There is no holiness where there is dissent from the Pope." (St Pius X).  It would not matter to me if everyone on earth lambasted a rite of the Catholic Church, I would still stand with the Pope, even if it was only he and I left.  

    I trust and obey the Pope.  The Pope gave us this rite in 1955, and it is infallibly protected from any error, and as it was approved as a rite of the Church it can only be good and holy and pleasing in the sight of God.

    If you want to understand my submission of my will and intellect to the Pope, my spirit adheres to the teaching given by Saint Pius X on how to love the Pope:

    Quote

    "And how should one love the Pope? Not merely by word nor tongue, but works and integrity. When one is loved, all of that person’s thoughts, wills, and desires are sought out for assent...to demonstrate our love to the Pope it is necessary to obey him...when we love the Pope, we do not dispute whether he commands or requires a thing, or seek to know where the strict obligation of obedience lies, or in what matter we must obey; when we love the Pope we do not say that he has not yet spoken clearly – as if he were required to speak his will in every man's ear, and to utter it not only by word of mouth but in letters and other public docuмents as well. Nor do we cast doubt on his orders, alleging the pretext which comes easily to the man who does not want to obey, that it is not the Pope who is commanding, but some one in his entourage. We do not limit the field in which he can and ought to exercise his authority; we do not oppose to the Pope's authority that of other persons – no matter how learned – who dissent from the Pope. For whatever may be their learning, they are not holy, for where there is holiness there cannot be dissent with the Pope." [allocution of 18 November, 1912, AAS vol. 4 (1912), 693-695. Selection from p. 695]



    Taken directly from the Acta:
    Quote
    E come si deve amarlo il Papa? Non verbo neque lingua, sed opere
    et veritate. Quando si ama una persona si cerca di uniformarsi in tutto
    ai suoi pensieri, di eseguirne i voleri, di interpretarne i desideri. E se
    nostro Signor Gesù Cristo diceva di sè: si quis diligit me, sermonem
    meum servabit, così per dimostrare il nostro amore al Papa è necessario
    ubbidirgli.
    Perciò quando si ama il Papa, non si fanno discussioni intorno a
    quello che Egli dispone od esige, o fin dove debba giungere l'obbedienza,
    ed in quali cose si debba obbedire; quando si ama il Papa, non
    si dice che non ha parlato abbastanza chiaro, quasi che Egli fosse obbligato
    di ripetere all'orecchio d'ognuno quella volontà chiaramente espressa
    tante volte non solo a voce, ma con lettere ed altri pubblici docuмenti;
    non si mettono in dubbio i suoi ordini, adducendo il facile pretesto di
    chi non vuole ubbidire, che non è il Papa che comanda, ma quelli che
    lo circondano; non si limita il campo in cui Egli possa e debba esercitare
    la sua autorità; non si antepone alla autorità del Papa quella di
    altre persone per quanto dotte che dissentano dal Papa, le quali se
    sono, dotte non sono sante, perchè chi è santo non può dissentire
    dal Papa.
    (allocution of 18 November, 1912, AAS vol. 4 (1912), 693-695. Selection from p. 695)

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic

    Offline Quo Vadis Petre

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #13 on: December 10, 2012, 12:03:53 PM »
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  • So we're just to ignore the problems in the "reform", even if it is orthodox? That isn't the spirit of true liturgical reform. I hope the day will come when the liturgical revolution which began in 1951, will be consigned to the scrap heap, where it belongs and true liturgical reform be implemented. As I said previously, your principles would make us go sede, since you say we can't criticize any decision of the Pope, especially the Novus Ordo. There are other things Popes in the past have done that would have make them at least material heretics, and yet sedes have not called them anti-Popes!
    "In our time more than ever before, the greatest asset of the evil-disposed is the cowardice and weakness of good men, and all the vigour of Satan's reign is due to the easy-going weakness of Catholics." -St. Pius X

    "If the Church were not divine, this

    Offline Ambrose

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    Which chapels use the pre-1955 rite?
    « Reply #14 on: December 11, 2012, 12:04:37 AM »
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  • Quote
    So we're just to ignore the problems in the "reform", even if it is orthodox? That isn't the spirit of true liturgical reform. I hope the day will come when the liturgical revolution which began in 1951, will be consigned to the scrap heap, where it belongs and true liturgical reform be implemented. As I said previously, your principles would make us go sede, since you say we can't criticize any decision of the Pope, especially the Novus Ordo. There are other things Popes in the past have done that would have make them at least material heretics, and yet sedes have not called them anti-Popes!


    If you are convinced that there are problems with a rite of the Church, and that it could be made better, the proper way is to present your grievances privately to the Pope.  The decision rests with the man Christ gave the power to bind and to loosen laws, not to anyone else.

    I do not know what the next Pope will do with Pius XII's laws, but it really does not matter to me either, I am ready to obey and submit to whatever laws the Pope gives me.  I am a layman, my place is to follow St. Peter's successor like sheep following a shepherd.  Read again what St. Pius X taught about how to love the Pope that I posted above.

    There are no examples in the past of a Pope teaching heresy to the universal Church or promulgating evil laws especially evil sacramental rites to the Church.  This has gone on since Vatican II.  You can logically work this out if you want, or choose not to, that is up to you, but the problem remains:  The Vatican II Popes have taught heresy to the universal Church in their official teaching, and have given evil laws to the universal Church.  These things are impossible for true Popes to do.  

    You are right that these principles would lead you to believe these men are not popes, but that does not change the fact that the principles I am stating are Catholic principles.  

    The few examples you may produce of alleged things past popes have said or done are oftentimes exaggerated by the enemies of the Church, and in many cases are falsehoods.  The Protestants including the Old Catholic sect have been digging around for a long time for just such a test case against the Papacy but have come up empty handed.  The reason is that the Papacy is a protected office by Our Lord, and there are certain things that Popes cannot do, which I described above.

    The Council of Trent, The Catechism of the Council of Trent, Papal Teaching, The Teaching of the Holy Office, The Teaching of the Church Fathers, The Code of Canon Law, Countless approved catechisms, The Doctors of the Church, The teaching of the Dogmatic