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Author Topic: Where is +Vigano?  (Read 4008 times)

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Offline Incredulous

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Re: Where is +Vigano?
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2021, 09:19:05 AM »
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  • Like you, I would question whether Fr. Wathan’s book has any nourishing value.

    But as regards the sacramental theology of the Church, and whether or not one is nourished by the grace contained in all validly conferred sacraments, it depends on “ex opere operantis:”

    “A term mainly applied to the good dispositions with which a sacrament is received, to distinguish it from the ex opere operato, which is the built-in efficacy of a sacrament properly conferred. But it may refer to any subjective factor that at least partially determines the amount of grace obtained by a person who performs some act of piety. Thus in the use of sacramentals or in the gaining of indulgences, the blessings received depend largely on the faith and love of God with which a sacramental is employed or an indulgenced prayer or good work is performed.”
    Okay, thanks.
    "Some preachers will keep silence about the truth, and others will trample it underfoot and deny it. Sanctity of life will be held in derision even by those who outwardly profess it, for in those days Our Lord Jesus Christ will send them not a true Pastor but a destroyer."  St. Francis of Assisi

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #31 on: July 26, 2021, 09:19:47 AM »
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  • See previous response.
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #32 on: July 26, 2021, 09:32:33 AM »
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  • I'm not a dogmatic anything, but I think there's three  major problems with Ladislaus argument.

    The former is that couldn't one argue that Francis recent encyclical does not in fact speak for the church?  

    The second is that it would seem to me that if it is in fact true the denying  the disciplinary  infallibility of the church falls under some theological note below heresy, is it possible that what we currently see in front of us could justify us disagreeing with it even if it would have been temerarus in normal times?

    Finally, even if we grant for the sake of argument that technically speaking a strictly celebrated NO is acceptable, isn't it more prudent at this point to attend a chapel not under the control of Francis simply because he has evidently in bed with globalist powers who desire and design our ruin?  If the powers that be demanded that we simply never have mass again, perhaps because of a virus or whatever, Francis would comply. How can we trust him?

    Then again, if I'm asking this maybe I really do wonder if he's really Pope.  To be honest I can at least see a plausible argument that John Paul  II and Benedict meant well and we're just sincerely confused. I can't honestly find a way to make that argument for Francis.  It seems pretty clear to me that either a deliberate destroyer can be pope or Francis isn't a pope.  I personally don't see how Francis can he in good faith 

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #33 on: July 26, 2021, 10:07:26 AM »
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  • I'm not a dogmatic anything, but I think there's three  major problems with Ladislaus argument.

    The former is that couldn't one argue that Francis recent encyclical does not in fact speak for the church?  

    The second is that it would seem to me that if it is in fact true the denying  the disciplinary  infallibility of the church falls under some theological note below heresy, is it possible that what we currently see in front of us could justify us disagreeing with it even if it would have been temerarus in normal times?

    Finally, even if we grant for the sake of argument that technically speaking a strictly celebrated NO is acceptable, isn't it more prudent at this point to attend a chapel not under the control of Francis simply because he has evidently in bed with ɠƖobaƖıst powers who desire and design our ruin?  If the powers that be demanded that we simply never have mass again, perhaps because of a virus or whatever, Francis would comply. How can we trust him?

    Then again, if I'm asking this maybe I really do wonder if he's really Pope.  To be honest I can at least see a plausible argument that John Paul  II and Benedict meant well and we're just sincerely confused. I can't honestly find a way to make that argument for Francis.  It seems pretty clear to me that either a deliberate destroyer can be pope or Francis isn't a pope.  I personally don't see how Francis can he in good faith

    Ok, so much for keeping focus on the OP...

    That there are provisions in both the 1917 and 1983 CIC for bishops to dispense with this king of decree when said decree runs contrary to the common good heavily implies such decrees are not infallible (or how could such conditions envisaged by canon law ever arise?).
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Offline Matthew

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #34 on: July 26, 2021, 11:20:52 AM »
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  • This topic has become a sede debate -- hence it belongs in the Crisis subforum with other such discussions.
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    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #35 on: July 26, 2021, 11:52:25 AM »
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  • more from Hermann:
    Again, Hermann agrees with the sedevacantists that commanding (or even positively tolerating) a Rite of Mass which "tend(s) to the detriment of the Church or harm of the faithful" is tantamount to a defection of the Church.

    Either the NOM does not tend to the detriment of the Church or harm of the faithful, or the Holy See is vacant.  It's that simple.
    Hermann who? I presume he is some one from the 19th or 20th century.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #36 on: July 26, 2021, 12:00:10 PM »
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  • Then again, if I'm asking this maybe I really do wonder if he's really Pope.  To be honest I can at least see a plausible argument that John Paul  II and Benedict meant well and we're just sincerely confused. I can't honestly find a way to make that argument for Francis.  It seems pretty clear to me that either a deliberate destroyer can be pope or Francis isn't a pope.  I personally don't see how Francis can he in good faith
    The current pope means well, that's what the NO does to people who go there - even to popes.

    Consider for a moment that your the pope and no matter what, because of some infallibility introduced by theologians, i.e.  thanks to the protection of the Holy Ghost, you cannot impose a harmful Rite of Mass, or teach heresy.

    Imposing a prot service and preaching the NO religion where there's no more sin (unless you're a trad) only means more people get into heaven. Why wouldn't you do the same as he is doing?
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #37 on: July 26, 2021, 12:09:50 PM »
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  • The current pope means well, that's what the NO does to people who go there - even to popes.

    Consider for a moment that your the pope and no matter what, because of some infallibility introduced by theologians, i.e.  thanks to the protection of the Holy Ghost, you cannot impose a harmful Rite of Mass, or teach heresy.

    Imposing a prot service and preaching the NO religion where there's no more sin (unless you're a trad) only means more people get into heaven. Why wouldn't you do the same as he is doing?
    I disagree.

    I agree with ByzCat on this point. A somewhat decent argument of “meaning well” can be made for Ratzinger, Wojtyla, and Roncalli to a certain extent. But Bergoglio and Montini? I think that’s implausible based on a number of factors such as their writings and actions.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna


    Offline forlorn

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #38 on: July 26, 2021, 12:14:45 PM »
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  • The current pope means well, that's what the NO does to people who go there - even to popes.

    Consider for a moment that your the pope and no matter what, because of some infallibility introduced by theologians, i.e.  thanks to the protection of the Holy Ghost, you cannot impose a harmful Rite of Mass, or teach heresy.

    Imposing a prot service and preaching the NO religion where there's no more sin (unless you're a trad) only means more people get into heaven. Why wouldn't you do the same as he is doing?
    This is not "some infallibility introduced by theologians", but a dogma of Trent.

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #39 on: July 26, 2021, 12:28:55 PM »
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  • I disagree.

    I agree with ByzCat on this point. A somewhat decent argument of “meaning well” can be made for Ratzinger, Wojtyla, and Roncalli to a certain extent. But Bergoglio and Montini? I think that’s implausible based on a number of factors such as their writings and actions.
    Per the NO dogmas that say all councils are infallible and the pope cannot impose a harmful Rite of Mass, then the current pope is simply implementing a directive to rid the Church and world of the old liturgy, where most are *not* saved, and replace it with the new liturgy, were most are saved. I would think that what he's doing should be construed as a very good thing, I am sure he would not understand why anyone would think otherwise.

    60 years after the council, now that the new liturgy is more fully and truly understood, all he is doing is his duty to more fully implement it - it's always been the same goal since V2, nothing new here.

    You would likely do the same thing if you were the pope, divinely protected from imposing a harmful Rite of Mass. Which is to say that  whatever Rite you impose must be deemed infallibly safe. Got it?  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #40 on: July 26, 2021, 12:29:38 PM »
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  • This is not "some infallibility introduced by theologians", but a dogma of Trent.
    Then the NO Rite is not harmful. 
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Hermes

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #41 on: July 26, 2021, 01:19:07 PM »
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  • Per the NO dogmas that say all councils are infallible and the pope cannot impose a harmful Rite of Mass, then the current pope is simply implementing a directive to rid the Church and world of the old liturgy, where most are *not* saved, and replace it with the new liturgy, were most are saved. I would think that what he's doing should be construed as a very good thing, I am sure he would not understand why anyone would think otherwise.

    60 years after the council, now that the new liturgy is more fully and truly understood, all he is doing is his duty to more fully implement it - it's always been the same goal since V2, nothing new here.

    You would likely do the same thing if you were the pope, divinely protected from imposing a harmful Rite of Mass. Which is to say that  whatever Rite you impose must be deemed infallibly safe. Got it?  
    Yes, I understand your perspective quite well. You are approaching this topic from an R&R mindset implicitly criticizing both the conservative Novus Ordo & Sedevacantist perspectives on ecclesiology. I do not agree with your view. I’ll leave it at that.

    For the sake of historical truth however, I will warn that what you labelled as “NO dogmas” are actually Catholic dogmas that were explained by some of the greatest theological minds the Church had prior to Vatican II and even prior to the 20th century altogether.

    O Fortuna
    Velut luna

    Offline SeanJohnson

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #42 on: July 26, 2021, 01:21:56 PM »
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  • Ok, so much for keeping focus on the OP...

    That there are provisions in both the 1917 and 1983 CIC for bishops to dispense with this king of decree when said decree runs contrary to the common good heavily implies such decrees are not infallible (or how could such conditions envisaged by canon law ever arise?).

    This makes talk of infallibility within the context of motu proprios nonsense ^^^^
    Rom 5: 20 - "But where sin increased, grace abounded all the more."

    Online Stubborn

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #43 on: July 26, 2021, 01:40:49 PM »
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  • For the sake of historical truth however, I will warn that what you labelled as “NO dogmas” are actually Catholic dogmas that were explained by some of the greatest theological minds the Church had prior to Vatican II and even prior to the 20th century altogether.
    Yes, it is relatively easy to find these NO dogmas (as I labeled them) from various well respected theologians of the 19th and 20th centuries. But not so easy, at least I've had no luck finding theologians prior to then who speculated the same.

    Regardless of that fact, V1 defined the doctrine of papal infallibility, which disagrees with the above theologians whose wrong speculations were and still are taken, as you demonstrate above, as dogmatic Church teachings infallibly defined, particularly by NOers and sedes.  
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Where is +Vigano?
    « Reply #44 on: July 26, 2021, 01:58:19 PM »
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  • This is not "some infallibility introduced by theologians", but a dogma of Trent.
    I'm not persuaded this is how Trent is meant to be understood.  

    Trent is condemning the Protestant error that the vestments, ceremonies, etc. of the Catholic Church are harmful, in other words "we should go back to the primitive forms of doing things without vestments and ceremonies."

    I don't think Trent has in mind what we should think if what appears to be the hierarchy appears to promulgate a Protestantized Rite of mass.