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Author Topic: Where is the True Church with the Four Marks today? In sede-land, or in the RCC?  (Read 4463 times)

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Offline AnthonyPadua

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.

The problem with your position is that you are claiming there is a contradiction between the teaching of Pius XII and the Council of Florence, and the teaching of the theologians who taught baptism of desire and of blood. There is no such contradiction. You are the one who is in error, since the Church does not contradict herself.

If baptism of desire and blood were heretical, as you claim, none of the Doctors of the Church who taught it (which is all of them) would ever have been made Doctors of the Church, since the Church does not proclaim heretics to be Doctors of the Church.
Saints are not infallible, many of the Saints have made errors that would be considered heretical if held today. Though this does not make them heretics.

The Church is very clear in her teaching, baptism of blood and desire have never been taught, the speculation of Saints and theologians don't change that. Your position is nonsense, and with assumptions. There are also Saints on both sides of this issue.


Quote
Act of Faith

...I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches because you have revealed them who are eternal truth and wisdom,
Try saying this prayer more often, maybe you will be able to believe what the Church has defined.


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Pope Pius XII, Mystici Corporis Christi (# 22), June 29, 1943.

Actually only those are to be included as members of the Church who have been baptized and profess the true faith, and who have not been so unfortunate as to separate themselves from the unity of the Body, or been excluded by legitimate authority for grave faults committed. "For in one spirit" says the Apostle, "were we all baptized into one Body, whether Jews or Gentiles, whether bond or free."[17] As therefore in the true Christian community there is only one Body, one Spirit, one Lord, and one Baptism, so there can be only one faith.[18] And therefore, if a man refuse to hear the Church, let him be considered - so the Lord commands - as a heathen and a publican. [19] It follows that those who are divided in faith or government cannot be living in the unity of such a Body, nor can they be living the life of its one Divine Spirit.

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Pope Eugene IV, “Cantate Domino", Council of Florence

"It firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart “into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels”, unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church."

Water baptism is required for salvation, You should take not that the Council of Trent NOWHERE MENTIONS BAPTISM OF BLOOD nor baptism of desire. "desire thereof" as a requirement for justification does not = baptism of desire

Offline AlNg

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... the Church does not proclaim heretics to be Doctors of the Church.
   
“St. Gregory of Narek lived and died as a member of Armenian Apostolic Church, making him the only Doctor who was not in communion with the Catholic Church during his lifetime.”
https://news.stthomas.edu/theology-matters-new-doctor-church-st-gregory-narek/
There is a question about whether or not he was a heretic.
https://buildingcatholicculture.com/was-the-newest-doctor-of-the-church-a-heretic-evaluating-st-gregory-of-nareks-writings/


Offline Ladislaus

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... due to their rejection of Catholic teaching through the Universal Ordinary Magisterium on Baptism of Desire and of Blood.

There's no such teaching of the OUM about BoD or BoB.  In fact, the main "evidence" you have for this claim is your interpretation of the Council of Trent.  But if we interpret Trent the BoD way, Trent definitively rules out BoB, since it teaches clearly, in your reading, that there can be no justification without the Sacrament or the Desire, in which case it eliminates any BoB that does not reduce to BoD, and elminates the possibility of a BoB for infants, which is, in the case of the Holy Innocents, one of the go-to (albeit fallacious) arguments used in favor of BoB.  So the so-called "Three Baptisms" is a heresy against Trent (by your own criteria, if you read it the way you want), since, according to Trent there are only "Two Baptisms".

In point of fact, if Trent had been meaning to teach about BoD in that passage, about the so-called "Three Baptisms," it would certainly have made some mention of BoB as well.

Offline JJoseph

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Thats a nice selfie, Elwin. I wouldnt have wanted to dox you, but I see now youve done so yourself.

Lol. Will address the arguments subsequently.

Offline Ladislaus

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Thats a nice selfie, Elwin. I wouldnt have wanted to dox you, but I see now youve done so yourself.

Lol. Will address the arguments subsequently.

Despite your nice 4th-grade-schoolyard-quality "comeback".  "I know you are, but what am I?" ... it's obvious that you're trolling here.


Offline Ladislaus

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So Apostolicity guarantees the other 3 marks are present. Where is Apostolicity found today, in diocesan Bishops appointed by the Popes, or with the sedes?

Yet another idiotic false dilemma / dichotomy fallacy.  There's Apostolicity of Orders (which not only the "sedes" but also the other Traditional Catholics but even the Eastern Orthodox possess), though it's doubtful whether the Novus Ordo have valid Orders, and there's Apostolicity of mission, the Apostolicity of Faith, and the Apostolicity of Mission.  We're obviously in a Great Apostasy now, but even during the Arian crisis anywhere from between 97-99% of "episcopal sees" were in the hands of Arians.  Meanwhile, "rogue" bishops like St. Athanasius and a few others went around consecrating Catholic bishops in Sees that had been usurped/occupied by the Arians.  Which bishop had the true Apostolicity, the ones with or the ones without the Catholic faith?  First and foremost requirement for Apostolicity is the Tradition of Faith, then of Orders, and only third that of of Mission (aka ordinary jurisdiction).  Why the Order?  Because you can't have Apostolic Mission without Apostolic Orders and Apostolic Faith.  Then, even if you have Apostolicity of Orders, you can't have true Apostolicity without Apostolicity of Faith.  Thus, the bishops consecrated by St. Athanasius had a greater claim to Apostolicity than the Arian usurpers, who acquired their Sees "legitimately" or by the ordinary process.

Faith: Traditional Catholics
Orders:  Traditional Catholics, Eastern Orthodox
Mission: [Novus Ordo]

NO is in brackets because they have a material continuity with the "Mission", and yet they cannot have true Mission because they don't have the True Faith, and only very doubtfully have valid Orders.

Nor does this have anything to do with the R&R vs. "sede" debate, as you're deliberately trying to create a division, since neither R&R nor "sedes" have the Apostolicity of Mission.

At some point, you'll need to decloak your true agenda, because it's becoming exposed bit by bit.  I doubt you're even a Traditional Catholic, but are here to cause division on points that all Traditional Catholics agree about.

Offline Ladislaus

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Oh goodie.  Fresh anti-sede blood.

See, I think it's just a ruse.  He's beating on on "sedes" but his main argument from Apostolicity applies to both R&R and "sedes".  I think this guy is a Conciliar troll.  No "sede" claims to have ordinary jurisdiction (i.e. Apostolicity of Mission), but then R&R don't have it either, and only a minority of them (with the theology of "wishful thinking") pretend that R&R do either.

Offline Ladislaus

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Who are you talking about? I've never heard anyone assert this.

Right.  He combines false dilemma with strawman fallacy, while his main point of attack is actually an attack on all Traditional Catholics.  Reminds me of how John Pontrello (Orthodox heretic/schismatic) promotes anti-SV stuff like S&S just to create division, because he actually condemns R&R Traditional Catholics as well.  They do this as a deliberate tactic, pretend to be attacking one group, but then attacking not only that group but also the group attacking that group.  It's as if there were two gangs in a city, and then a gang member comes in from another city and takes out a member of one gang in order to stir up a gang war so that both gangs would be weakened or even wiped out and he could come in and expand his gang into that city.


Offline AnthonyPadua

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Yet another idiotic false dilemma / dichotomy fallacy.  There's Apostolicity of Orders (which not only the "sedes" but also the other Traditional Catholics but even the Eastern Orthodox possess), though it's doubtful whether the Novus Ordo have valid Orders, and there's Apostolicity of mission, the Apostolicity of Faith, and the Apostolicity of Mission.  We're obviously in a Great Apostasy now, but even during the Arian crisis anywhere from between 97-99% of "episcopal sees" were in the hands of Arians.  Meanwhile, "rogue" bishops like St. Athanasius and a few others went around consecrating Catholic bishops in Sees that had been usurped/occupied by the Arians.  Which bishop had the true Apostolicity, the ones with or the ones without the Catholic faith?  First and foremost requirement for Apostolicity is the Tradition of Faith, then of Orders, and only third that of of Mission (aka ordinary jurisdiction).  Why the Order?  Because you can't have Apostolic Mission without Apostolic Orders and Apostolic Faith.  Then, even if you have Apostolicity of Orders, you can't have true Apostolicity without Apostolicity of Faith.  Thus, the bishops consecrated by St. Athanasius had a greater claim to Apostolicity than the Arian usurpers, who acquired their Sees "legitimately" or by the ordinary process.

Faith: Traditional Catholics
Orders:  Traditional Catholics, Eastern Orthodox
Mission: [Novus Ordo]

NO is in brackets because they have a material continuity with the "Mission", and yet they cannot have true Mission because they don't have the True Faith, and only very doubtfully have valid Orders.

Nor does this have anything to do with the R&R vs. "sede" debate, as you're deliberately trying to create a division, since neither R&R nor "sedes" have the Apostolicity of Mission.

At some point, you'll need to decloak your true agenda, because it's becoming exposed bit by bit.  I doubt you're even a Traditional Catholic, but are here to cause division on points that all Traditional Catholics agree about.
This was useful information. Is there others threads on this?

Offline Ladislaus

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This was useful information. Is there others threads on this?

Sorry, I just re-read the post and, as I tend to spew these out in a couple minutes, I noticed some repetitive/redundant phraseology at the beginning.  I know a lot of people think that I'm constantly posting, but I type at a remarkable speed (my co-workers have remarked about it), most likely due to this old lady at my Jesuit High School who taught us typing on these very old typewriters (not keyboards then) which required a lot of pressure to work.  And often I get comments about my tone, which tends to differ very much in writing than if I were speaking directly to people, as again, I'm interested in just getting the substance out and pay little attention to any tone or, rather, perceived tone.

In any case, there are different facets to Apostolicity:  of Faith, of Holy Orders, and of Mission (aka ordinary jurisdiction).  There's a clear hierarchy of these.  You could possess the material offices, but if you don't have the Apostolic Faith or valid Holy Orders, you lack Apostolicity.  You can have valid Holy Orders (like the Orthodox), but they too don't possess Faith or Mission (jurisdiction).  Given that in this Great Apostasy, no one has all three, the Apostolicity of Faith and of Holy Orders, the two primary ones, we find only Traditional Catholics in possession of (without any distinction between R&R and sedes on this point that the OP was trying to inflame).

In any case, all jurisdiction derives from the Pope, but even in ordinary sedevacante periods, with there being no pope in actuality (vs. in potency), the Church goes into a holding pattern where no new episcopal appointments are made (except in necessity during periods of long SV, and they need to be affirmed by the Pope that follows).  Nearly all theologians hold that jurisdiction derives from Christ to the Pope and then from the Pope to the bishops, though a minority hold that Christ supplies it directly to the bishops in some capacity.  But, in either case, whatever jurisdiction there is during regular periods of SV is supplied directly by Christ to the Church and is supplied to whatever extent is necessary to keep the Church functioning.  So, in other words, priests continue to have jurisdiction to hear Confessions, and bishops jurisdiction to perform whatever is necessary to keep their dioceses functioning.  Christ is actually the Head of the Church, and the Pope merely His vicar or stand-in, so in times of SV, Christ will supply the degree or level of jurisdiction / mission to Catholics who retain the true faith as is necessary for the salvation of souls until the Crisis is resolved.

This is also where Salza & Siscoe slip up, where they claimed that Mission or ordinary jurisdiction is THE only criterion for determining membership in the Church, so that they must conclude that Joe Biden is more Catholic than Archbishop Lefebvre.  It's utterly absurd.  This JJoseph might be a Salza/Siscoe follower, minion, or perhaps even one of them.  I think that Salza and/or Siscoe have been banned from here a few times already.

Offline JJoseph

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In any case, all jurisdiction derives from the Pope, but even in ordinary sedevacante periods, with there being no pope in actuality (vs. in potency), the Church goes into a holding pattern where no new episcopal appointments are made (except in necessity during periods of long SV, and they need to be affirmed by the Pope that follows).  Nearly all theologians hold that jurisdiction derives from Christ to the Pope and then from the Pope to the bishops, though a minority hold that Christ supplies it directly to the bishops in some capacity.  But, in either case, whatever jurisdiction there is during regular periods of SV is supplied directly by Christ to the Church (lol) and is supplied to whatever extent is necessary to keep the Church functioning.  So, in other words, priests continue to have jurisdiction to hear Confessions, and bishops jurisdiction to perform whatever is necessary to keep their dioceses functioning.  Christ is actually the Head of the Church, and the Pope merely His vicar or stand-in, so in times of SV, Christ will supply the degree or level of jurisdiction / mission to Catholics who retain the true faith as is necessary for the salvation of souls until the Crisis is resolved.
This illustrates you are ignorant of the subject, and hold to confused Gallican/Old Catholic ideas on it. Cardinal Franzelin says: "Then indeed the divine law and institution of perpetuity remains, and by the same reason the right and duty in the Church of procuring the succession according to the established law; there remain also the participations in the powers [of the papacy] to the extent they are communicable to others [e.g. to the Cardinals or bishops], and have been communicated by the successor of Peter while still alive, or have been lawfully established and not abrogated [thus the jurisdiction of bishops, granted by the Pope, does not cease when he dies]; but the highest power itself, together with its rights and prerogatives, which can in no way exist except in the one individual heir of Peter, now actually belong to no one while the See is vacant."

When a Pope dies, all Bishops do not just like that vacate their offices, or lose their ordinary/habitual power of jurisdiction. The very word habitual should have told you that. Papal delegates who were granted delegated powers dependent on the Pope would. But Ordinaries do not, as Franzelin clearly says. And this is what, if you reflected on it - which you won't - would show you a 5 or 6 year month sede vacante is different from a supposed 66+ year one. And your earlier statement is correct. No new episcopal appointments are made during a sede vacante. That is why the Church does defect in a 66 year vacancy, but won't in a 6 month one, as you could perhaps hold your breath underwater for a few minutes but not for months. During a vacancy, then, all Bishops already in office retain their habitual/ordinary powers of jurisdiction, but no new Ordinaries are possible. The very so-called "Last Pope" of the sedevacantists taught this clearly in multiple Encyclicals, that ordinary jurisdiction is granted to Bishops only by the Pope. Thus, if Pope Pius XII were the last Pope, all the Bishops appointed by him having now deceased, the Church has defected, if sedevacantism is true. Therefore, sedevacantism is not true, but is a pathetic heresy, which informed Traditional Catholics must combat, and do teach their less informed hopefully good-willed brethren. That's what I do, Ladislaus, and I'm least bothered whether you disagree or not. If you were of good will, however, you will correct your erroneous opinion in light of what Cardinal Franzelin said.


Offline JJoseph

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Quote
Baptism of blood is a straight up heresy, and the magisterium has never taught Baptism of desire.

Laughable. Mr. "Anthony Padua", Baptism of Blood is taught in the Gospel, where Christ says those who lay down their lives for His will save it. Your erroneous opinion (and I'm being charitable/mild) would give pause to holy martyrs, who, desiring baptism and even death for Christ, actually would be willing to sacrifice their lives for Christ but who, according to your heresy, would in fact go to Hell for loving Jesus Christ too much! Another pathetic heresy, worthy of the abominable trash that is Dimondite sede vacantism.

Here is the Baltimore Catechism teach Baptism of Desire and Blood, which was approved by Pope Leo XIII:
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" * Q. 322. How does an unbaptized person receive the baptism of blood?
A. An unbaptized person receives the baptism of blood when he suffers martyrdom for the faith of Christ.

* Baptism of blood does not imprint a character on the soul, nor does it give one the right to receive the other sacraments. It does, however, confer grace and take away sin, original and actual, and the punishment due to sin.
* Martyrdom is the suffering, from a supernatural motive, of death or a mortal wound inflicted out of hatred for Christ, His religion, or a Christian virtue. In sinners guilty of mortal sin, at least attrition is also required in order to secure the effects of baptism of blood.
* > "He who finds his life will lose it, and he who loses his life for my sake, will find it" (Matthew 10:39).
* > "For he who would save his life will lose it; but he who loses his life for my sake and for the gospel's sake will save it" (Mark 8:35).
* > "And I say to you, everyone who acknowledges me before men, him will the Son of Man also acknowledge before the angels of God" (Luke 12:8).
* > "Greater love than this no one has, that one lay down his life for his friends." (John 15:13).

From: https://www.drbo.org/cat/htm/02024.htm



Offline JJoseph

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So, we see the End Times are peculiar.
And the Saints and Doctors, and even the Prophets and Scriptures, say that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass won't be actually abolished until anti-christ comes; and yes, I totally agree the actual anti-Christ will in fact abolish the Holy Mass, but the Mass will be abolished only for 3.5 years, according to the Saints and Doctors. Thus, by your opinion, that this crisis has led to almost no Sacrifice for 50 + years, this crisis would be worse than the crisis of anti-christ, which is impossible. When the final anti-Christ comes, that will be the worst crisis, and there will also be near-universal persecution, which there isn't currently.

To the points raised by other posters: St. Augustine, St. Optatus etc use the same "Catholic" or "Universal argument against the Donatists. The Donatists were a small local sect in Africa. They were never Universal. Whereas (Catholic) Christianity had already been established in Africa, in Asia, in Europe, in pretty much all of the known world at that time. So the True Church always was more universal than small local sects. The OT prophets say the Lord will be worshipped across the world, and they also say the "descendants of Abraham" (true believers) will be like "the sand in the seashore, and sea on the sky", i.e. very numerous. This is one of those passages Pope Pius IX is referring to when he says the Old Catholics show in their number that they are no in way Catholic, viz universal. He also quotes the Gospel to show the Church will be in all nations until the end of the world, thus refuting "Old Catholic" false notions of "great apostasy", which sedes have revived. Sedevacantism is Old Catholicism 2.0.

And regarding Mal 1:11 and the Universal Sacrifice it prophesies, St. Justin Martyr and the Didache apply it at an even earlier time to the Church, as opposed to the ѕуηαgσgυє (the first false sect). St. Justin in particular in his Dialogue with Trypho the Jєω tells them their sect even now (after 2000+ years of Judaism) isn't in every place, but the early Christian Church already was beginning to be: "Moreover, as I said before, concerning the sacrifices which you at that time offered, God speaks through Malachi [1:10-12]…It is of the SACRIFICES OFFERED TO HIM IN EVERY PLACE BY US" https://reasonstobechristian.com/f/15-proofs-of-the-truth-of-real-presence-from-the-early-church Sedes have had nearly 70 years since their false sect sprang up; Old Catholics around 150. Neither are Universal nor ever will be, therefore, as Pius IX said, neither sects are Catholic or ever will be, unless they repent.

Offline Pax Vobis

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Quote
Baptism of Blood is taught in the Gospel, where Christ says those who lay down their lives for His will save it. Your erroneous opinion (and I'm being charitable/mild) would give pause to holy martyrs, who, desiring baptism and even death for Christ, actually would be willing to sacrifice their lives for Christ but who, according to your heresy, would in fact go to Hell for loving Jesus Christ too much!
JJoseph, you need to stop self-interpreting Scripture and listen to the Church's interpretation of these matters.  See below the DOCTRINAL TEACHING from Pope Eugene, which contradicts your comments above, and which you MUST accept, under pain of sin and hell.



Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, “Cantate Domino,” 1441, ex cathedra:

“The Holy Roman Church firmly believes, professes and preaches that all those who are outside the Catholic Church, not only pagans but also Jєωs or heretics and schismatics, cannot share in eternal life and will go into the everlasting fire ..and that nobody can be saved, … even if he has shed blood in the name of Christ, unless he has persevered in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”

Offline Ladislaus

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This illustrates you are ignorant of the subject, and hold to confused Gallican/Old Catholic ideas on it. Cardinal Franzelin says: "Then indeed the divine law and institution of perpetuity remains, and by the same reason the right and duty in the Church of procuring the succession according to the established law; there remain also the participations in the powers [of the papacy] to the extent they are communicable to others [e.g. to the Cardinals or bishops], and have been communicated by the successor of Peter while still alive, or have been lawfully established and not abrogated [thus the jurisdiction of bishops, granted by the Pope, does not cease when he dies]; but the highest power itself, together with its rights and prerogatives, which can in no way exist except in the one individual heir of Peter, now actually belong to no one while the See is vacant."

You're the one who's ignorant and dishonest.  You inject your own commentary into Franzelin, trying to make it appear as if he said what you're claiming he said.  You should have quoted him and tried to comment later.

When you cited my post, you also injected a "lol".  Please stop tampering with my posts without making it clear like [my comment: lol].  You're a complete ignoramus and the LOL needs to be directed toward your stupidity.

Are you incapable of reading English?  I wrote precisely that the bishops retain jurisdiction during an SV period, but was simply detailing the state of theological opinion regarding HOW / WHY they retain jursidiction.  Franzelin was articulating the majority opinion (as I explained it also) that jurisdiction is "communicated by the success of Peter whle still alive".  Dispute is over what happens when he is no longer alive, i.e. in a period of SV.  Obviously the jurisdiciton is no longer being communicated by the Pope during the SV period, since he's no longer alive.  So during that period, Christ directly communicates the jurisdiction to the Bishops.  According to the minority opinion, however, there's no change in an SV period, since Christ was already directly communicating the jurisdiction to the bishops, based on the papal appointment.

This speaks to the same distinction made by the sedeprivationists, whether the jurisdiction flows formally from the Pope or just materially from the Pope but formally from Christ.  Obviously, for the Pope, the appointment (aka election) only materially designates the man to papal office, but the jurisdiction is formally communicated by Christ.  Those of the minority opinion hold that it works the same way for bishops.  But the majority opinion hold that the jurisdiction is formally communicated by the Pope, not directly by Christ.

There's absolutely nothing I wrote that contradicts Franzelin, and your pretending that it does merely exposes your own ignorance.