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Author Topic: Where is the True Church with the Four Marks today? In sede-land, or in the RCC?  (Read 4467 times)

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Offline JJoseph

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It's incredible some people think the sede sect, or the sede Church if you will, is supposedly the Roman Catholic Church. Let's call the idea that it is the s-RCC. The mainstream RCC we will call m-RCC. Then, (1) Either the s-RCC or the m-RCC is the t-RCC (true RCC), but (2) it can be shown that the s-RCC is not the t-RCC, ergo or therefore, it clearly follows that (3) the m-RCC is the true RCC.

We could lack at all 4 Marks, but for brevity, we'll take just 2.

(1) Catholicity or Universality: Is the sede sect geographically universal? To ask the question is to answer it. It is nowhere near to it. Mal 1:11 requires a Universal Church with a Universal Sacrifice, and the m-RCC has it, with 1.4 BN Catholics and 400,000+ Priests in every nation, but the s-RCC does not. And if you think this argument is novel, it is based on the Gospel itself, which says the Gospel will be preached, and thus the Church present, in all nations, until the end of the world, and is the precise refutation Pope Bl. Pius IX used against the Old Catholics in Etsi Multa against their false claims: "23. These unhappy men undermine the foundations of religion, overturn all its marks and properties, and invent so many foul errors, or rather, draw forth from the ancient store of heretics and gather them together and publish them. Yet they do not blush to call themselves Catholics and Old Catholics, while in their doctrine, novelty, and number they show themselves in no way to be either old or Catholic ... Christ Himself is asked; He says ‘and this gospel will be preached in the whole world, in testimony to all nations, and then will come the end.’ Therefore the Church will be among all nations until the end of the world. Let heretics perish as they are, and let them find that they become what they are not.”[8]" From: https://www.papalencyclicals.net/pius09/p9etsimu.htm

In the below article, Non-Catholic Christian writer Philip Jenkins shows there will soon be more Catholics in Africa alone than there were in the entire world in 1950! "By 2050, a conservative estimate suggests there should be at least 1.6 billion Catholics ... If current trends continue, as they show every sign of doing, then by the 2040s there will be some 460 million African Catholics. Incredibly, that number would be greater than the total world population of Catholics as it stood in 1950."

From: https://catholicherald.co.uk/catholicisms-incredible-growth-story/

2. Apostolicity: The CE says this: ""Apostolicity is the mark by which the Church of today is recognized as identical with the Church founded by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles. It is of great importance because it is the surest indication of the true Church of Christ, it is most easily examined, and it virtually contains the other three marks, namely, Unity, Sanctity, and Catholicity." https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01648b.htm

So Apostolicity guarantees the other 3 marks are present. Where is Apostolicity found today, in diocesan Bishops appointed by the Popes, or with the sedes? The CE continues: "Billuart (III, 306) concludes his remarks on Apostolicity in the words of St. Jerome: "We must abide in that Church, which was founded by the Apostles, and endures to this day.: Mazella (De Relig. et Eccl., 359), after speaking of Apostolic succession as an uninterrupted substitution of persons in the place of the Apostles, insists upon the necessity of jurisdiction or authoritative transmission, thus excluding the hypothesis that a new mission could ever be originated by anyone in the place of the mission bestowed by Christ and transmitted in the manner described." The words are very clear. Apostolicity continues in the dioceses, by Papal Appointments conferring the Apostolic Mission, just as it did before Vat. II"

And as for unity, needless to say the SSPV, CMRI, Dolan, Sanborn etc who in some cases don't even recognize each others valid or licit orders do not have unity. But Catholicity and Apostolicity are sufficient to demonstrate it.

"He who has ears, let him hear". 

Offline Gunter

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I don't attend this church but this is a good explanation of the current crisis.  No authority but responsibility to remove yourself from danger.
https://youtu.be/2Q_riZtNzkU?si=96-fx7o98cA_I5uZ


Offline 2Vermont

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Oh goodie.  Fresh anti-sede blood.

Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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(1) Catholicity or Universality:
Is the sede sect geographically universal? To ask the question is to answer it. It is nowhere near to it. Mal 1:11 requires a Universal Church with a Universal Sacrifice, and the m-RCC has it, with 1.4 BN Catholics and 400,000+ Priests in every nation, but the s-RCC does not.

"He who has ears, let him hear".

This means the Catholic Church did not achieve geographic universality until the last few hundred years.  Our Lady of Guadalupe started it in the New World in the 1500's.  What of the days when the Church consisted of the 12 Apostles in the Cenacle?  Was that Universal? 

Offline ElwinRansom1970

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  • γνῶθι σεαυτόν - temet nosce
JJoseph is a Newbie with very few postings. Such a troll!

"I distrust every idea that does not seem obsolete and grotesque to my contemporaries."
Nicolás Gómez Dávila


Offline Yeti

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It's incredible some people think the sede sect, or the sede Church if you will, is supposedly the Roman Catholic Church.
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Who are you talking about? I've never heard anyone assert this.

Offline Marulus Fidelis

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(1) Catholicity or Universality: Is the sede sect geographically universal? To ask the question is to answer it. It is nowhere near to it. Mal 1:11 requires a Universal Church with a Universal Sacrifice, and the m-RCC has it, 
Won't even read the rest of your nonsense.

St. Alphonsus: "The devil has always attempted, by means of heretics, to deprive the world of the Mass, making them precursors of the antichrist, who before anything else, will try to abolish and will actually abolish the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, as a punishment for the sins of men, according to the prediction of Daniel, 'And strength was given him against the continual sacrifice." (Daniel 8:12)

So, we see the End Times are peculiar. Besides, you're begging the question that your satanic sect has any of the marks and a sacrificial Mass which it doesn't. It has a protestant service that falsifies the words of Our Lord.

Offline Seraphina

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Who are you talking about? I've never heard anyone assert this.
Me, neither!  It sounds to me it’s one of those questions for which there’ll be no definitive answer until Rome comes to Her senses.  In the meantime, most of us have more pressing issues to attend.


Offline Yeti

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Me, neither!  It sounds to me it’s one of those questions for which there’ll be no definitive answer until Rome comes to Her senses.  In the meantime, most of us have more pressing issues to attend.
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No, what I mean is that this is a complete straw man. I have never heard any sedevacantist say that only sedevacantists are Catholic. Such an idea would be absurd.

Offline Matthew

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No false dilemmas please.

It exists in the Traditional Catholic movement, and/or "in some way" (partial, disabled, and/or mysterious) in the Conciliar Church
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Offline AlNg

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 I have never heard any sedevacantist say that only sedevacantists are Catholic. Such an idea would be absurd.
At an SV site, I read that the Conciliar or post Vatican II Church is a counterfeit Church and not the Catholic Church. For example, on MHFM I read: "This article gives the stunning evidence that the Vatican II sect, a counterfeit Church which opposes the true Catholic Church in the last days, is the Harlot of Babylon prophesied …"


Offline Marulus Fidelis

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At an SV site, I read that the Conciliar or post Vatican II Church is a counterfeit Church and not the Catholic Church. For example, on MHFM I read: "This article gives the stunning evidence that the Vatican II sect, a counterfeit Church which opposes the true Catholic Church in the last days, is the Harlot of Babylon prophesied …"
Curiously you left out the evidence and the fact that this is acknowledged by many saints and theologians


The prophecies of the Apocalypse [book of Revelation] show that Satan will imitate the Church of Christ to deceive mankind; he will set up a church of Satan in opposition to the Church of Christ. Antichrist will assume the role of Messias; his prophet will act the part of Pope; and there will be imitations of the Sacraments of the Church. There will also be lying wonders in imitation of the miracles wrought in the Church.
(Rev. E. Sylvester Berry, The Church of Christ: An Apologetic and Dogmatic Treatise [St. Louis, MO: B. Herder Book Co., 1927], p. 119; italics given.)

Yes the Vatican II sect is the fake counter-church.

Offline Yeti

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At an SV site, I read that the Conciliar or post Vatican II Church is a counterfeit Church and not the Catholic Church. For example, on MHFM I read: "This article gives the stunning evidence that the Vatican II sect, a counterfeit Church which opposes the true Catholic Church in the last days, is the Harlot of Babylon prophesied …"
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This position is not at all the same thing as saying all non-sedevacantists are outside the Church. Most sedevacantists accept anyone who rejects the modernist changes and adheres to traditional Catholic teaching as being Catholic.

Moreover, the Dimond brothers are not representative of sedevacantist thought. Most sedevacantists accept what their clergy teach them, and no sedevacantist clergy would give the sacraments to the Dimond brothers due to their rejection of Catholic teaching through the Universal Ordinary Magisterium on Baptism of Desire and of Blood. The Dimonds are basically their own little sect with their own ideas. Just because they happen to believe in sedevacantism doesn't mean they are the same, intellectually, as other sedevacantists.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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This position is not at all the same thing as saying all non-sedevacantists are outside the Church. Most sedevacantists accept anyone who rejects the modernist changes and adheres to traditional Catholic teaching as being Catholic.

Moreover, the Dimond brothers are not representative of sedevacantist thought. Most sedevacantists accept what their clergy teach them, and no sedevacantist clergy would give the sacraments to the Dimond brothers due to their rejection of Catholic teaching through the Universal Ordinary Magisterium on Baptism of Desire and of Blood. The Dimonds are basically their own little sect with their own ideas. Just because they happen to believe in sedevacantism doesn't mean they are the same, intellectually, as other sedevacantists.
The Church does not teach these heresy. Pope Pius XII is very clear that only those who are baptised and profess the true faith are members of the Church. And the Council of Florence states that EVEN IF YOU SHED YOUR BLOOD FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST YOU CANNOT BE SAVED, unless you are in the Church.

Baptism of blood is a straight up heresy, and the magisterium has never taught Baptism of desire.

Offline Yeti

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The Church does not teach these heresy. Pope Pius XII is very clear that only those who are baptised and profess the true faith are members of the Church. And the Council of Florence states that EVEN IF YOU SHED YOUR BLOOD FOR THE NAME OF CHRIST YOU CANNOT BE SAVED, unless you are in the Church.

Baptism of blood is a straight up heresy, and the magisterium has never taught Baptism of desire.
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The problem with your position is that you are claiming there is a contradiction between the teaching of Pius XII and the Council of Florence, and the teaching of the theologians who taught baptism of desire and of blood. There is no such contradiction. You are the one who is in error, since the Church does not contradict herself.

If baptism of desire and blood were heretical, as you claim, none of the Doctors of the Church who taught it (which is all of them) would ever have been made Doctors of the Church, since the Church does not proclaim heretics to be Doctors of the Church.