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Author Topic: Where is the True Church with the Four Marks today? In sede-land, or in the RCC?  (Read 4458 times)

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Offline JJoseph

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Lol. "my own commentary". Tell me if you haven't read +Franzelin without telling me you haven't read Franzelin. It isn't my commentary, see this: https://archive.org/details/DeEcclesiaFranzelin/De%20Ecclesia%20%28Franzelin%29_OCR/

Also, you are completely ignorant if you're really continuing to say the Bishops have no Ordinary Jurisdiction in a sede vacante.

"What Franzelin said and even your interpretation of it does not refute what I wrote (and actually has nothing to do with it) is that during periods of SV, Christ is supplying the jurisdiction to the bishops as the Head of the Church."

Christ is not supplying jurisdiction to the bishops, you dishonest ignoramus. The Bishops continue to exercise the ordinary jurisdiction proper to their office.

You are hopelessly confused. Go learn the actual difference between supplied jurisdiction and ordinary jurisdiction. Supplied jurisdiction is supplied to bishops who lack ordinary jurisdiction. Bishops who already have ordinary jurisdiction do not need it to be supplied. You ought to be reduced to perpetual silence, at least on this subject, as various false teachers were by different Popes throughout the centuries. When the prophesied Angelic Pontiff comes, many of you are going to be quite shocked about what he teaches and the disciplines and punishments he imposes upon Dimondists, sedevacantists, and other schismatics.

Offline Ladislaus

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When a Pope dies, all Bishops do not just like that vacate their offices, or lose their ordinary/habitual power of jurisdiction.

I never said this, liar.  In fact, I said exactly the opposite.  You've disqualified yourself from all debate when you show your tendency to lie in order to erect a strawman, when I said the exact opposite of what you claim I said.

Here's what I wrote in the passage cited, which apprently you didn't comprehend, because you wanted to read into it your little strawman:

Ladislaus:
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So, in other words, priests continue to have jurisdiction to hear Confessions, and bishops jurisdiction to perform whatever is necessary to keep their dioceses functioning.  



Offline JJoseph

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JJoseph, you need to stop self-interpreting Scripture and listen to the Church's interpretation of these matters.  See below the DOCTRINAL TEACHING from Pope Eugene, which contradicts your comments above, and which you MUST accept, under pain of sin and hell.
I cited the Church teaching of Pope Leo XIII and the Baltimore Catechism, which you rejected and didn't even address. Also, the words are plain, and every Catholic commentary confirms them, as does the Magisterium of multiple Popes including Pope Leo XIII, Pope St. Pius X and Pope Ven. Pius XII. 

You are totally ignorant of what the Council of Florence even was about and what it is saying. It is not addressing catechumens at all, nor those seeking Baptism for the first time, nor ready to die for Christ. Rather, it was a re-union Council between Greeks and Latins, and it's a clear admonition to persevere in the Unity of the Catholic Church after having once attained it. Ironically, this is precisely what you Dimondists et al have not done, whereas the Eastern Catholics did it, while the Greek schismatics did not. You are Latin schismatics and not Latin Catholics if you defend separation from Rome, whereas some Eastern Catholics, especially Russian and Ukrainian Catholics preferred horrible death and torture under Communism to remain in Catholic Unity with the Holy Roman Church, which the Council of Trent calls the Mother Church of all Christendom, and Fenton teaches is indefectible even as a particular local Church.

The Council is thus speaking of those who commit the deliberate mortal sins of heresy and schism and then think that, provided they are martyred for Christ, then their unrepentant mortal sins will be absolved. It won't. Neither will yours, unless you specifically repent of yours. So Cantate Domino is not addressed to Eastern Catholics. It's addressed to schismatics, whether Eastern or Western, whether ancient or modern. Reflect carefully on it and try to practice it yourself. It in no way condemns Baptism of Blood, or the great glory of martyrdom for the Lord Jesus Christ.

Offline Ladislaus

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Lol. "my own commentary". Tell me if you haven't read +Franzelin without telling me you haven't read Franzelin. It isn't my commentary, see this: https://archive.org/details/DeEcclesiaFranzelin/De%20Ecclesia%20%28Franzelin%29_OCR/

Also, you are completely ignorant if you're really continuing to say the Bishops have no Ordinary Jurisdiction in a sede vacante.

"What Franzelin said and even your interpretation of it does not refute what I wrote (and actually has nothing to do with it) is that during periods of SV, Christ is supplying the jurisdiction to the bishops as the Head of the Church."

Christ is not supplying jurisdiction to the bishops, you dishonest ignoramus. The Bishops continue to exercise the ordinary jurisdiction proper to their office.

You are hopelessly confused. Go learn the actual difference between supplied jurisdiction and ordinary jurisdiction. Supplied jurisdiction is supplied to bishops who lack ordinary jurisdiction. Bishops who already have ordinary jurisdiction do not need it to be supplied. You ought to be reduced to perpetual silence, at least on this subject, as various false teachers were by different Popes throughout the centuries. When the prophesied Angelic Pontiff comes, many of you are going to be quite shocked about what he teaches and the disciplines and punishments he imposes upon Dimondists, sedevacantists, and other schismatics.

And yet you continue to lie, you degenerate.  What part of what I cited from my own quote did you not comprehend, where I said that bishops continue to have jurisdiction, and the priests to have the jurisdiction they receive from their bishops.

You're too much of a moron to understand the distinction between the mode of communication of this jurisdiction vs. the possession of it.

There's a minority opinion which holds that Christ is supplying jurisdiction to the Bishops even WHILE the Pope is alive.  In the majority opinion, when the Pope is alive, Christ supplies it to the Pope, and then the Pope to the bishops.  In the minority opinion, there's no change during an SV period, which is what you're advocating, whereas in the majority opinion there is a change, where Christ supplies it to the bishops (instead of, as formerly, to the Pope, and the Pope to the bishops).

At no point did I state that they no longer had jurisdiction, and in fact said the exact opposite, but then you keep lying about what I said.  You are basically promoting the minority opinion (even though you're too dense to realize it), while I was promoting the majority opinion.

Offline JJoseph

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Use the words "supplied" and "ordinary" in your post, you dishonest fellow.

I know what the minority opinion is, and it isn't what you absurdly think it is, or say it is, just to save your precious schismatic sedevacantism from heresy.

The minority opinion is that Bishops receive ordinary jurisdiction directly from Christ upon Papal appointment, so that Papal appointment is only a condition but not the direct cause of said particular ordinary jurisdiction. But this is a Gallican opinion and a false one. The better and more learned theologians - and this is the one Pope Pius XII, your last Pope, and Christ through him, confirms, to pre-emptively condemn your heresy - already held that no, Papal (Universal Ordinary) Jurisdiction was also the cause of Episcopal (Universal Ordinary) Jurisdiction. But this applies only to the appointment into office. It does not mean, as you dishonestly imply to try and evade the conclusion that your 65 year interregnum is different from a 2 week one, that Bishops who already have particular ordinary jurisdiction now need any jurisdiction to be supplied to them. Is that clear? I think you'll continue to pretend it isn't, but we all know it is.


Offline Pax Vobis

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The Council is thus speaking of those who commit the deliberate mortal sins of heresy and schism and then think that, provided they are martyred for Christ, then their unrepentant mortal sins will be absolved.
No, Pope Eugene clearly lists pagans, Jєωs, and then says "no one".  Pope Eugene's INFALLIBLE statement applies to all categories of peoples, not just heretics/schismatics.

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I cited the Church teaching of Pope Leo XIII and the Baltimore Catechism
:facepalm:  An infallible council and/or a doctrinal declaration > catechism and/or a papal encyclical/writing.

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It in no way condemns Baptism of Blood
The Church has never canonized an unbaptized martyr as a saint, so BoB is just a theory anyways.

Offline AnthonyPadua

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“St. Gregory of Narek lived and died as a member of Armenian Apostolic Church, making him the only Doctor who was not in communion with the Catholic Church during his lifetime.”
https://news.stthomas.edu/theology-matters-new-doctor-church-st-gregory-narek/
There is a question about whether or not he was a heretic.
https://buildingcatholicculture.com/was-the-newest-doctor-of-the-church-a-heretic-evaluating-st-gregory-of-nareks-writings/
Not a good example as that's a vatican 2 'saint'

Offline AnthonyPadua

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I cited the Church teaching of Pope Leo XIII and the Baltimore Catechism, which you rejected and didn't even address. Also, the words are plain, and every Catholic commentary confirms them, as does the Magisterium of multiple Popes including Pope Leo XIII, Pope St. Pius X and Pope Ven. Pius XII.

You are totally ignorant of what the Council of Florence even was about and what it is saying. It is not addressing catechumens at all, nor those seeking Baptism for the first time, nor ready to die for Christ. Rather, it was a re-union Council between Greeks and Latins, and it's a clear admonition to persevere in the Unity of the Catholic Church after having once attained it. Ironically, this is precisely what you Dimondists et al have not done, whereas the Eastern Catholics did it, while the Greek schismatics did not. You are Latin schismatics and not Latin Catholics if you defend separation from Rome, whereas some Eastern Catholics, especially Russian and Ukrainian Catholics preferred horrible death and torture under Communism to remain in Catholic Unity with the Holy Roman Church, which the Council of Trent calls the Mother Church of all Christendom, and Fenton teaches is indefectible even as a particular local Church.

The Council is thus speaking of those who commit the deliberate mortal sins of heresy and schism and then think that, provided they are martyred for Christ, then their unrepentant mortal sins will be absolved. It won't. Neither will yours, unless you specifically repent of yours. So Cantate Domino is not addressed to Eastern Catholics. It's addressed to schismatics, whether Eastern or Western, whether ancient or modern. Reflect carefully on it and try to practice it yourself. It in no way condemns Baptism of Blood, or the great glory of martyrdom for the Lord Jesus Christ.
You are wrong here. More quotes against you
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2Corinthians 4:3-4
And if our gospel be also hid, it is hid to them that are lost, In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of unbelievers, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not shine unto them.
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There is only one universal Church of the faithful, outside of which no one at all can be saved (Pope Innocent III, 1215).
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We declare, say, define and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman pontiff (Pope Boniface VIII, 1302).
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Pope Eugene IV, Council of Florence, Sess. 8, Nov. 22, 1439, ex cathedra: “Whoever wishes to be saved, needs above all to hold the Catholic faith; unless each one preserves this whole and inviolate, he will without a doubt perish in eternity.– But the Catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in the Trinity, and the Trinity in unity... Therefore let him who wishes to be saved, think thus concerning the Trinity. “But it is necessary for eternal salvation that he faithfully believe also in the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ...the Son of God is God and man...– This is the Catholic faith; unless each one believes this faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.”
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"If anyone in word and mind does not properly and truly confess, according to the Holy Fathers, all, even to the last portion, that which has been handed down and preached in the Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church of God . . . let him be anathema." - Pope St. Martin I

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Pope Pius IX, Vatican I, Sess. 3, Chap. 3, 1870, on Faith:

Further, by divine and Catholic faith, all those things must be believed which are contained in the written word of God and in tradition, and those which are proposed by the Church, either in a solemn pronouncement or in her ordinary and universal teaching power, to be believed as divinely revealed.

But, since "without faith it is impossible to please God" [Heb 11:6] and to attain to the fellowship of His sons, hence, no one is justified without it; nor will anyone attain eternal life except "he shall persevere unto the end on it" [Mt 10:22; 24:13].
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Pope Paul III, Council of Trent, Sess. V, 1546: “…our Catholic faith, without which it is impossible to please God [Heb. 11:6]…”

Sess. VI, Canon II: “If anyone shall say that divine grace through Christ Jesus is given for this only, that man may more easily be able to live justly and merit eternal life, as if by free will without grace he were able to do both, though with difficulty and hardship: let him be anathema” (Denz. 812).

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Syllabus of Errors:
17. Good hope at least is to be entertained of the eternal salvation of all those who are not at all in the true Church of Christ. —Encyclical “Quanto conficiamur,” Aug. 10, 1863, etc.
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Pope Benedict XIV, cuм Religiosi (# 4), June 26, 1754: “See to it that every minister performs carefully the measures laid down by the holy Council of Trent… that confessors should perform this part of their duty whenever anyone stands at their tribunal who does not know what he must by necessity of means know to be saved…”
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Pope St. Pius X, Acerbo Nimis (# 2), April 15, 1905: “And so Our Predecessor, Benedict XIV, had just cause to write: ‘We declare that a great number of those who are condemned to eternal punishment suffer that everlasting calamity because of ignorance of those mysteries of faith which must be known and believed in order to be numbered among the elect.’”
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Pope Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos (# 13), Aug. 15, 1832: “Now we consider another abundant source of the evils with which the Church is afflicted at present: indifferentism. This perverse opinion is spread on all sides by the fraud of the wicked who claim that it is possible to obtain the eternal salvation of the soul by the profession of any kind of religion, as long as morality is maintained. Surely, in so clear a matter, you will drive this deadly error far from the people committed to your care. With the admonition of the apostle, that ‘there is one God, one faith, one baptism’ (Eph. 4:5), may those fear who contrive the notion that the safe harbor of salvation is open to persons of any religion whatever. They should consider the testimony of Christ Himself that ‘those who are not with Christ are against Him,’ (Lk. 11:23) and that they disperse unhappily who do not gather with Him. Therefore, ‘without a doubt, they will perish forever, unless they hold the Catholic faith whole and inviolate (Athanasian Creed).
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Pope Gregory XVI: “Therefore, they must instruct them in the true worship of God, which is unique to the Catholic religion.” (Summo Iugiter Studio # 6, May 27, 1832)
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Pope Leo XIII (1902): “By his (Christopher Columbus’) toil another world emerged from the unsearched bosom of the ocean: hundreds of thousands of mortals have, from a state of blindness been raised to the common level of the human race, reclaimed from savagery to gentleness and humanity; and, greatest of all, by the acquisition of those blessings of which Jesus Christ is the author, they have been recalled from destruction to eternal life.” (Encyclical, Quarto Abrupto)
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Pope Leo XII, Ubi Primum (# 14):

“It is impossible for the most true God, who is Truth itself, the best, the wisest Provider, and the Rewarder of good men, to approve all sects who profess false teachings which are often inconsistent with one another and contradictory, and to confer eternal rewards on their members… by divine faith we hold one Lord, one faith, one baptism… This is why we profess that there is no salvation outside the Church.”
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St. Alphonsus Liguori, Sermons (c. +1760): “How many are born among the pagans, among the Jєωs, among the Mohammedans and heretics, and all are lost.”

"... these modern incredulous: and if ever someone had remained blinded by their sophisms, that he open his eyes to recognise the truth of our Holy Faith, absent which there isn't hope of salvation."

Preparation For Death: “How thankful we ought to be to Jesus Christ for the gift of faith! What would have become of us if we had been born in Asia, Africa, America, or in the midst of heretics and schismatics? He who does not believe is lost. This, then, was the first and greatest grace bestowed on us: our calling to the true faith. O Savior of the world, what would become of us if Thou hadst not enlightened us? We would have been like our fathers of old, who adored animals and blocks of stone and wood: and thus we would have all perished.”

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St. Francis Xavier, Dec. 31, 1543: “There is now in these parts [of India] a very large number of persons who have only one reason for not becoming Christians, and that is that there is no one to make them Christians. It often comes into my mind to go round all the Universities of Europe, and especially that of Paris, crying out everywhere like a madman, and saying to all the learned men there whose learning is so much greater than their charity, ‘Ah! What a multitude of souls is through your fault shut out of heaven and falling into hell!’…

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St. John Vianney: "Christians who are damned will suffer torments infinitely more rigorous than the infidels. The reason is that these strangers will be damned because they never heard talking about Jesus Christ and his religion; that they lived and died in ignorance."

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St. Robert Bellarmine: "...no one is justified without faith in Christ."

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St. Augustine (+428): “… God foreknew that if they had lived and the gospel had been preached to them, they would have heard it without belief.”

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St. Thomas Aquinas, Sent. III, 25, Q. 2, A. 2, solute. 2: “If a man should have no one to instruct him, God will show him, unless he culpably wishes to remain where he is.”
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Pope Pelagius I, Vas electionis: "That I may define by profession my faith, attached below, in which, by God's grace, it may be manifestly clear that I follow in the footsteps of the correct doctrine of the Apostles and Fathers[..]I confess that all men from Adam, even to the consummation of the world, having been born and having died with Adam himself and his wife, who were not born of other parents, but were created, the one from the earth, the other, however, from the rib of the man will then rise again and stand before the Judgment seat of Christ, that every one may receive the proper things of the body, according as he has done, whether it be good or bad; and indeed by the very bountiful grace of God he will present the just, as vessels of mercy prepared beforehand for glory, with the rewards of eternal life; namely, they will live without end in the society of the angels without any fear now of their own fall; the wicked, however, remaining by choice of their own with vessels of wrath fit for destruction, who either did not know the way of the Lord, or knowing it left it when seized by various transgressions, He will give over by a very just judgment to the punishment of eternal and inextinguishable fire, that they may burn without end. This, then, is my faith and hope, which is in me by the gift of the mercy of God, in defence of which blessed Peter taught that we ought to be especially ready to answer everyone who asks us for an accounting[..]But whosoever will hold, believe, or preach otherwise, him the holy and universal Church of God anathematizes."
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Pope Benedict XIV, Apostolica (# 6), June 26, 1749: “The Church’s judgment is preferable to that of a Doctor renowned for his holiness and teaching.”
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Errors of the Jansenists, #30: “When anyone finds a doctrine clearly established in Augustine, he can absolutely hold it and teach it, disregarding any bull of the pope.”- Condemned by Pope Alexander VIII
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Pope Pius XII, Humani generis (# 21), Aug. 12, 1950: “This deposit of faith our Divine Redeemer has given for authentic interpretation not to each of the faithful, not even to theologians, but only to the Teaching Authority of the Church.’”
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St. John Chrysostom:
“Lest anyone say ‘What about those who do not believe in Jesus Christ’ listen to what Jesus says:
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‘I know mine and mine know me’.”
-John 10:14
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What denying this doctrine leads to:

Abp. Lefebvre, Sermon at first Mass of a newly ordained priest (Geneva: 1976): “We are Catholics; we affirm our faith in the divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ; we affirm our faith in the divinity of the Holy Catholic Church; we think that Jesus Christ is the sole way, the sole truth, the sole life, and that one cannot be saved outside Our Lord Jesus Christ and consequently outside His Mystical Spouse, the Holy Catholic Church. No doubt, the graces of God are distributed outside the Catholic Church, but those who are saved, even outside the Catholic Church, are saved by the Catholic Church, by Our Lord Jesus Christ, even if they do not know it, even if they are unaware of it...”
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Pope Clement V, The Council of Vienne, 1311-1312: “Besides, only one baptism regenerating all who are baptized in Christ must be faithfully confessed by all just as ‘one God and one faith’ [Eph. 4:5], which celebrated in water in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit we believe to be the perfect remedy for salvation for both adults and children.”
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Pope Clement V, The Council of Vienne, 1311-1312: “But since one is the universal Church, of regulars and seculars, of prelates and subjects, of exempt and non-exempt, outside of which absolutely (omnino) no one (nullus) is saved, one is the Lord, one is the Faith and one is the baptism of all.”
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Pope St. Leo the Great, Letter 105, May 22, 452: “… giving thanks to the Merciful and Almighty God that He has suffered none save those who loved darkness rather than light to be defrauded of the gospel-truth.”
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Fr. Francisco de Vitoria, O.P., a famous 16th century Dominican theologian,

“When we postulate invincible ignorance on the subject of baptism or of the Christian faith, it does not follow that a person can be saved without baptism or the Christian faith. For the aborigines to whom no preaching of the faith or Christian religion has come will be damned for mortal sins or for idolatry, but not for the sin of unbelief. As St. Thomas says, however, if they do what in them lies [in their power], accompanied by a good life according to the law of nature, it is consistent with God’s providence that he will illuminate them regarding the name of Christ.
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Pope St. Siricius (A.D. 385): “… we also say that to infants who will not yet be able to speak on account of their age or to those who in any necessity will need the holy stream of baptism, we wish succor to be brought with all celerity, lest it should tend to the perdition of our souls if the saving font be denied to those desiring it and every single one of them exiting this world lose both the Kingdom and life. Whoever should fall into the peril of shipwreck, the incursion of an enemy, the uncertainty of a siege or the desperation of any bodily sickness, and should beg to be relieved by the unique help of faith, let them obtain the rewards of the much sought-after regeneration in the same moment of time in which they beg for it. Let the previous error in this matter be enough; [but] now let all priests maintain the aforesaid rule, who do not want to be torn from the solidity of the apostolic rock upon which Christ constructed His universal Church.” (Decree to Himerius on the Necessity of Baptism)
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Second Council Of Constantinople, Sess. 3, AD 553: “… the holy, catholic and apostolic church of God, if anyone separates himself from its communion by holding contrary opinions, such a person, since he alienates himself from the orthodox faith and numbers himself with the heretics, is justly condemned and anathematized by the holy Church of God.”

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St. Leo the Great at the Council of Chalcedon, St. Leo said the Blood of Redemption can't be separated from the water of baptism.

"It is he, Jesus Christ who has come through water and blood, not in water only, but in water and blood. And because the Spirit is truth, it is the Spirit who testifies. For there are three who give testimony–Spirit and water and blood. And the three are one. In other words, the Spirit of sanctification and the blood of redemption and the water of baptism. These three are one and remain indivisible. None of them is separable from its link with the others."



Offline Ladislaus

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You are totally ignorant of what the Council of Florence even was about and what it is saying. It is not addressing catechumens at all, nor those seeking Baptism for the first time, nor ready to die for Christ. Rather, it was a re-union Council between Greeks and Latins, and it's a clear admonition to persevere in the Unity of the Catholic Church after having once attained it.

Modernist Detected ^^^

So the language cannot be understood without trying to spin it according to some extrinsic historical "context" that you could pretend means anything, so in this case you reduce the EENS definition to a "hyperbole" that was intended to just scare the schismatics into remaining in unity with the Church, but had no actual precise dogmatic meaning.  That's exactly what Bishop McKenna said one time, that EENS was just meant to scare people into joining the Church, which means that it was simply an exhortation using some mode of hyperbole.

Offline Ladislaus

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[Florence] in no way condemns Baptism of Blood, or the great glory of martyrdom for the Lord Jesus Christ.

No, Florence has nothing to do with BoB, for or against.  But you've lost the entire context about why it was cited, to reject your un-nuanced private interpretation of the "no greater love than this" teaching from Our Lord.  You attempted to make it into an unqualified truth that anyone who lays down his life (even a pagan for his friends?) will be saved.

Florence taught that martyrdom cannot have a salvific effect for those outside the Church.  Rather, it's not martyrdom at all, but a mere "shedding of Blood for Christ," since the term martyrdom assumes that the shedding of blood is a witnessing to the true faith, which cannot be done by non-Catholics.

Basically, the point of citing Florence was to demonstrate that your interpretation of Scripture does not in any way prove "BoB", since there can be no BoB outside the Church, and that martyrdom does not by itself unite someone to the Church.  It negates your point, and leave BoB on its own footing.

Offline Centroamerica

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Well, the SSPX could hardly pose to share the mark of One. They aren’t even One with all of the bishops that +Lefebvre gave them. They claim to be One with Francis the Apostate, but he doesn’t claim to be One with them and surely aren’t in religious things. I’m not sure they are One with anybody. Especially other Traditional Catholic groups. Novus Ordo pseudo-Trads like Burke call them schismatics and this is the clergy they claim to be One with. A huge let down. 
We conclude logically that religion can give an efficacious and truly realistic answer to the great modern problems only if it is a religion that is profoundly lived, not simply a superficial and cheap religion made up of some vocal prayers and some ceremonies...


Offline Pax Vobis

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the term martyrdom assumes that the shedding of blood is a witnessing to the true faith, which cannot be done by non-Catholics.
Excellent point!

Offline MiracleOfTheSun

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 ...schismatic sedevacantism...

Man, when will it end... yada, yada, yada

Offline Yeti

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During a vacancy, then, all Bishops already in office retain their habitual/ordinary powers of jurisdiction, but no new Ordinaries are possible. The very so-called "Last Pope" of the sedevacantists taught this clearly in multiple Encyclicals, that ordinary jurisdiction is granted to Bishops only by the Pope.
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Recently Bp. Pivaruns put out a very interesting article that this is actually not true. He found a history book that tells us there were 21 ordinaries appointed to dioceses, that were appointed during the three-year vacancy from 1268 to 1271. He gives the list of their names, locations, dates of appointment, etc. That was the longest vacancy until the 21st century.

Offline AlNg

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With reference to the original question and the 4 marks of the true Church, reading through the posts on this topic, there seems to be a lot of division and disunity among Catholics on various topics. Even the sedevacantists disagree among themselves. So I don't see which group has the mark of unity.