Understanding this topic is the key to avoiding errors during the crisis in the Church today. Where is the Church, and Her Four Marks?

Let's see what traditional sources have said about this. Here is the CE on the subject: https://www.newadvent.org/cathen/01648b.htm

(1) First, the Catholic Encyclopedia: "Apostolicity is the mark by which the Church of today is recognized as identical with the Church founded by Jesus Christ upon the Apostles. It is of great importance because it is the surest indication of the true Church of Christ, it is most easily examined, and it virtually contains the other three marks, namely, Unity, Sanctity, and Catholicity."

Notice that the CE says Apostolicity "virtually contains the other three marks". Hence, if we find the Apostolic Church, we find the Church with Her Four Marks.

Next, the CE says Apostolicity requires Bishops with Jurisdiction, proving this from various Fathers and other authorities: "Billot (De Eccl. Christi, I, 243-275) emphasizes the idea that the Church, which is Apostolic, must be presided over by bishops, who derive their ministry and their governing power from the Apostles. Apostolicity, then, is that Apostolic succession by which the Church of today is one with the Church of the Apostles in origin, doctrine, and mission ... jurisdiction is essential to the Apostolicity of mission"

Finally, the CE says the Catholic Church is manifestly Apostolic because (1) Of Her unbroken Succession from St. Peter the Apostle, and further, (2) is recognized as plainly Apostolic even by those who have left Her Communion.

"The history of the Catholic Church from St. Peter, the first Pontiff, to the present Head of the Church, is an evident proof of its Apostolicity, for no break can be shown in the line of succession. Cardinal Newman (Diff. of Anglicans, 369) says: "Say there is no church at all if you will, and at least I shall understand you; but do not meddle with a fact attested by mankind ... Their appeal shows that the Catholic Church is regarded as Apostolic even by those who have separated from her communion."

2. Second, Brunsmann Preuss, Handbook of Fundamental Theology: “In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter. For, since the primacy is the crown of the Apostolate, the Church which possesses the primacy must needs be Apostolic … Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense. Those regional churches which are subject to the successor of St. Peter, and live in community with him, participate in this Apostolicity. All others, be it that they have separated from the one only Apostolic Church or developed independently of her, lack the note of Apostolicity and consequently cannot be the true Church of Christ.” (Brunsmann Preuss, Handbook of Fundamental Theology, Vol III).

This detailed explanation from traditional theology is clear, concise and perfect. Applying it to our times, where is the Apostolic Church.

3. Finally, for those who want a Catechism, here is that of St. Anthony Mary Claret: St. Anthony Mary Claret: "The fourth note or mark of the Church is to be Apostolic. That is to say, it was founded by the Apostles and is governed by their successors, the bishops, who. since the Apostles, have succeeded without interruption. And these bishops have a lawful mission to guard always, in their teaching and management of the Church, the unity of Faith and of communion with their head and center, the Roman Pontiff ... All of us know that the Apostles fulfilled the mission that Jesus Christ gave them. And it is sufficient to read the list of the Catholic bishops, especially of the Supreme Pontiffs of Rome as the continuing Head or principal leader of Christianity - better said, of Catholicism - in order to see that.

[Pope Bl.] Pius IX, who by the mercy of God happily governs us, have succeeded Gregory XVI, and he Pius VIII. And so, ascending from one to the other, we shall arrive at Saint Peter, who was made by Jesus Christ the Prince of the Apostles and His Vicar on earth.

If, then, any heretics come to you, my son, saying that their churches are also Apostolic, there is nothing more to say to them than what Tertullian said: "Prove the origin of your churches. Make us see that the order of your bishops has in some way through succession descended from the beginning, that the first was any of the Apostles, or had as a predecessor some of the Apostolic men who had persevered together with the Apostles."

Inasmuch as the heretical sects will never be able to show this, so it is that none of them can reasonably glory in being Apostolic. But on the other hand, since the Catholic Church is the only one that is able to trace Her origin to the Apostles, it follows from what I have said that She alone is in all truth Apostolic."

Heretical sects, as St. Anthony Mary Claret says, will never be able to prove Apostolicity. Hence the Apostolicity of the Church itself also proves that She is not in heresy. http://catholicvox.blogspot.com/2009/03/eens-saint-anthony-mary-claret-from.html

As the CE put it, "Apostolicity of mission is a guarantee of Apostolicity of doctrine. St. Irenæus (Adv. Haeres, IV, xxvi, n. 2) says: "Wherefore we must obey the priests of the Church who have succession from the Apostles, as we have shown, who, together with succession in the episcopate, have received the certain mark of truth according to the will of the Father; all others, however, are to be suspected, who separated themselves from the principal succession"

Where do you believe the Apostolic Church is today? Where are Her Four Marks?

Hi 2Vermont. Regarding what you quoted, if it said, "Apostolicity of doctrine is a proof of Apostolicity of mission", I'd agree with you.

But it doesn't say that: it says "Apostolicity of mission is proof of Apostolicity of doctrine". Hence, if we find the Apostolic Church, which has the Apostolic Mission and the Power of Jurisdiction, we will also find the Apostolic Doctrine. That's what the CE is saying.

Do you agree that having an unbroken succession, in St. Peter' chair, or another episcopal see, from now to the Apostles, gives evidence of Apostolic succession? Per the explanations I quoted, that is how the Apostolic Church is distinguished and identified.

Brunsmann Preuss: "In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter. For, since the primacy is the crown of the Apostolate, the Church which possesses the primacy must needs be Apostolic … Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense."

XavierSem is an intellectually dishonest heretic.  He pretends that we are bound to the apostate Novus Ordo hierarchy but what he really wants to do is bind us to the SSPX hierarchy.  He uses the NO hierarchy as a tool to try to compel us to submit to the SSPX hierarchy.  But he won't admit it.  He is a deceiver.

He also binds the HANDS OF God, as if God has not provided a way to keep His promise that He will not leave us orphans.  

God's promise the Church will always have a Head.

  
It reminds me of the Ascension of Jesus when He left but promised He would always be with us. Yet He still left because He knew it was time for the Holy Ghost to come and wrap them with His gifts. He Jesus after His Ascension into Heaven the Bible tells us in Ephesians 1; "He wrought in Christ, raising Him up from the dead, and setting Him on his right hand in the heavenly places. [21] Above all principality, and power, and virtue, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. [22] And he hath subjected all things under His feet, and hath made Him head over all the Church, [23] Which is His body, and the fulness of Him who is filled all in all.


The truth is we live in the time of the Great Apostasy; the Pope is in exile, in the sense of the word absent. As promised at the Ascension, we still have a Head. He has not left us, orphans.
The Holy Ghost is ALSO here; don't insult Him by thinking He wrought the newchurch born from the Great Apostasy and all its sins are okay with God. 

XavierSem is an intellectually dishonest heretic.  He pretends that we are bound to the apostate Novus Ordo hierarchy but what he really wants to do is bind us to the SSPX hierarchy.  He uses the NO hierarchy as a tool to try to compel us to submit to the SSPX hierarchy.  But he won't admit it.  He is a deceiver.

But if the Novus Ordo has mission and the Faith there is no need for the SSPX.

No, Clemens Maria, heretics are those who deny Dogmas. I presented only the perfect and pure Catholic Dogma on Apostolicity from unimpeachable Catholic sources. You don't want to accept it, so you just resort to calumny, detraction and slander. Typical.

I quoted the Catholic Encyclopedia, Theology Manuals, and the Catechism of St. Anthony Mary Claret. Show where I'm wrong if I am.

If you had any response from those sources, you would have quoted it and made some kind of argument. But you evidently do not.

It's 63-year-SVism, and especially "Ecclesia-Vacantism" that denies Apostolicity that is heretical. That's what some of you believe.

I have presented the Truth, with clear evidence from many sources. You can believe whatever you choose to believe. That's up to you.

You have been spreading heresy against the dogma concerning the necessity of the Sacrament of Baptism for salvation.  And then you hypocritically try to convince everyone that we are bound by the Novus Ordo hierarchy while you yourself refuse submission to them.  So it is not a calumny to accuse you of heresy, it is my obligation.  And it is my obligation to point out to others how you are trying to deceive them concerning the status of the Novus Ordo hierarchy.  You yourself are a heretic so it is no wonder that you think nothing of binding Catholics to heretics.

Correct, Xavier, Apostolicity guarantees the other marks.  That is precisely the Major of sedevacantism.

But Apostolicity (though the Petrine office) is precisely what's being disputed here.

So applying modus tollens logic.

Major:  Apostolicity guarantees the other marks.
Minor:  Conciliar Church lacks the other marks.
Conclusion:  Conciliar Church lacks Apostolicity.

QED:  sedevacantism

You're basically begging the question here.  You assume Apostolicity to prove ... Apostolicity (and the other marks).

But he denies the consequences of his conclusion!  He doesn't show submission to apostolic authority.  He just uses it as a tool to try to bind everyone to the SSPX hierarchy.  Incredibly dishonest!

But he denies the consequences of his conclusion!  He doesn't show submission to apostolic authority.  He just uses it as a tool to try to bind everyone to the SSPX hierarchy.  Incredibly dishonest!

Right.  I have called him out on this repeatedly.  There's zero reason, given his theology, that he shouldn't be more aligned with FSSP or some similar Motarian group.