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Author Topic: Where is the Apostolic Church with Her Four Marks today?  (Read 2358 times)

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Offline MyrnaM

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Re: Where is the Apostolic Church with Her Four Marks today?
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2021, 11:19:16 AM »
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  • I found it Myrna, but unfortunately your scans are missing from the text of your post.  I can only surmise that when Matthew went to the new platform(?) it got lost somehow.
    https://www.cathinfo.com/the-library/salvation/msg308708/#msg308708
    Okay,  thank you so much, it is good to know that it is still there.  
    Please pray for my soul.
    R.I.P. 8/17/22

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    Offline 2Vermont

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    Re: Where is the Apostolic Church with Her Four Marks today?
    « Reply #46 on: February 25, 2021, 04:02:58 PM »
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  • Okay,  thank you so much, it is good to know that it is still there.  
    Well, it is, but it really isn't.
    For there shall arise false Christs and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders, insomuch as to deceive (if possible) even the elect. (Matthew 24:24)


    Offline ByzCat3000

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    Re: Where is the Apostolic Church with Her Four Marks today?
    « Reply #47 on: February 26, 2021, 07:59:24 AM »
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  • Only if you believe in the notion of partial Communion.  All we have in concession by Francis, for the good of the faithful, to give jurisdiction to their Confession and some marriages.
    I mean... anyone from a diocesan parish can show up at the SSPX and receive communion from her priests.  And anyone from the SSPX could show up at a diocesan parish and commune if they wanted to.

    This is explicitly different from, say, the SSPV, where the SSPV has stringent requirements to receive communion besides just being Catholic.  The SSPV is *not* in communion with Rome (I'm just describing the facts here, not making a moral judgment.)

    Rome has also explicitly said Catholics are allowed to attend SSPX chapels (they discourage it, but do not disallow it), and has explicitly authorized confessions and marriages.  The main thing I guess would be whether SSPX *priests* are actually allowed to say mass.  They're clearly Catholic, but if you wanted to make the "Rome is definitively right" argument, you could make the argument that the priests themselves aren't allowed to offer the masses, Rome not having said otherwise explicitly or clearly.

    I think there's good evidence, for what its worth, that Rome tacitly allowed SSPX confessions pre 2016: https://onepeterfive.com/fact-checking-certain-claims-about-the-sspx/?fbclid=IwAR0A5cAwNLAnl7PrpFYJgjTdg5f8Kd70Yd80b8L_4tg8k6ZtOWl1LErl1pI

    As an aside, if partial communion can *never* be a thing, I'm curious how you'd explain the melatian schism?  (If you actually know what I'm asking about here, this is something I learned about fairly recently in church history.)

    Leaving that tangent aside, I can understand if you're a Sedevacantist looking at the above and being like "well this isn't how ecclesiology is supposed to work, so *both* modern Rome and the SSPX are "breaking the rules so to speak."  I can also see the various forms of the "infallible safety" arguments being used against certain doctrinal positions of the SSPX, though I'm not sure those claims are actually provable.  But I don't see how you can meaningfully argue the SSPX is in schism.  I know Voris and Burke try to argue this and they seem to go against Rome by doing so even while they chastize the SSPX for being disobedient, and that combination doesn't make a whole lot of sense IMO

    Offline Meg

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    Re: Where is the Apostolic Church with Her Four Marks today?
    « Reply #48 on: February 26, 2021, 08:54:08 AM »
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  • Hi 2Vermont. Regarding what you quoted, if it said, "Apostolicity of doctrine is a proof of Apostolicity of mission", I'd agree with you.

    But it doesn't say that: it says "Apostolicity of mission is proof of Apostolicity of doctrine". Hence, if we find the Apostolic Church, which has the Apostolic Mission and the Power of Jurisdiction, we will also find the Apostolic Doctrine. That's what the CE is saying.

    Do you agree that having an unbroken succession, in St. Peter' chair, or another episcopal see, from now to the Apostles, gives evidence of Apostolic succession? Per the explanations I quoted, that is how the Apostolic Church is distinguished and identified.

    Brunsmann Preuss: "In order to be able to distinguish with certainty the true Church of Christ from all false claimants, it is sufficient to establish the Apostolic Succession with regard to the primacy of Peter. For, since the primacy is the crown of the Apostolate, the Church which possesses the primacy must needs be Apostolic … Hence that Church, and that Church only, which can trace its rulers to the first primate, namely, St. Peter, is in fact and by right Apostolic in every sense."

    It would make practical sense to say that where we find apostolicity of mission, we also find apostolicity of doctrine, but that's not the practical reality of what is happening in the Church today. The present Crisis is a mystery, as Archbishop Lefebvre rightly pointed out. It doesn't make sense that the Church, which should possess the Four Marks, could now have doctrine which conflicts with doctrine before the Vll council.

    Archbishop Lefebvre said that the Church is occupied by s Modernist sect. Pope St. Pius X warned in his encyclicals about the dangers of Modernism in the Church. The saintly Pope was aware that Modernism had infiltrated the Church. I only wish that he had called a council to address the problem, before it was too late. But maybe God had other plans.
    "It is licit to resist a Sovereign Pontiff who is trying to destroy the Church. I say it is licit to resist him in not following his orders and in preventing the execution of his will. It is not licit to Judge him, to punish him, or to depose him, for these are acts proper to a superior."

    ~St. Robert Bellarmine
    De Romano Pontifice, Lib.II, c.29