Author Topic: Where have all the children gone? (Read 4895 times)

Ekim · « **Reply #15 on:** February 10, 2017, 06:44:15 AM »

Points well taken. However, this thread is not about Fatima, it's about "Where have all the children gone?"

The fact that the Fatima prophecy has been unfulfilled for 100 years leaves young Catholics doubtful at best.

Arvinger · « **Reply #16 on:** February 10, 2017, 06:57:48 AM »

Quote from: Ekim

The fact that the Fatima prophecy has been unfulfilled for 100 years leaves young Catholics doubtful at best.

How so? WW2 happened (second secret), great apostasy in the Church happened (third secret), the only thing missing is material chastisement and that can come anytime.

If young Catholics' faith can be shaken because there was no apocalyptic event yet, it means that their foundation of the faith was weak - thus, we need solid catechesis to help young generation to stay Catholic.

Ekim · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2017, 07:59:16 AM »

Hard to have a "foundation " when everything and everyone calling themselves Catholic all contradict each other. Vatican II contradicts all of its predecessors. Francis the same. Novus Ordo and Tradition both claim to be heirs to the throne of Peter. +Fellay contradicts +Lefebvre, Sedes contradict Recognize and Resist, now we have "Resistance". Even apparitions prophecies, including Fatima, seem to drag on for centuries.

People I know who were raised in good Catholic families who were well catechised throw up their hands....and say enough is enough. I'm just going to follow my heart.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2017, 08:18:28 AM »

Statistically, trad young adults are just as infected with 'the world' as any other young adult population. As atheism is growing, so a small % of trads will be infected with this and their Faith will become lax and they may stop going to church for a while. I've seen this more than a few times.

As the indult grows, a large % will leave tradition and attend this. At our chapel, we've lost about 70% of one generation to the indult. Young adults, who haven't read anything about V2 or the new mass, who only care about social media, get duped by the 'positive and happy' novus ordo-ites who think that "the latin mass is coming back! Everything's going to be rosy". Plus, the millenial generation cannot stand to be an "outsider" or "different", as they want to be "part of the group" just like on facebook. They compromise their faith because of human respect. ...Or they started dating novus ordo/indult catholics and didn't want to 'rock the boat' by trying to convert them to tradition. So they compromised and went to the indult, for love.

Then, there's the normal % of trads who have just given into a partying/fun life. They may still go to mass, but their faith is very weak. A good percentage of these will 'grow up' and become decent catholics at some point. But, some will not.

Finally, there are some who have kept the Faith, lived 'boring' lives, are looked at as 'old fashioned' and who have grown in virtue. These are small in number but they are a great example.

Really, aren't the above 4 categories consistant with the parable of the "Sower of the Seed"?

Brennus · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2017, 08:21:35 AM »

Quote from: Ekim

Hard to have a "foundation " when everything and everyone calling themselves Catholic all contradict each other. Vatican II contradicts all of its predecessors. Francis the same. Novus Ordo and Tradition both claim to be heirs to the throne of Peter. +Fellay contradicts +Lefebvre, Sedes contradict Recognize and Resist, now we have "Resistance". Even apparitions prophecies, including Fatima, seem to drag on for centuries.

People I know who were raised in good Catholic families who were well catechised throw up their hands....and say enough is enough. I'm just going to follow my heart.

This is what is happening.

The way I see it, the "i'm going to follow my heart" discoveres the root of the problem. All this prophecy stuff is gobbled up because these people ALREADY are following their hearts, that is they are after emotional relief because they cannot cope with the squalor of their lives.

However -- again, this is how I see it -- that is no reason to abandon tradition because tradition is logical and, assuming on faith that its premises are true, it is sound. What needs to be done is we must focus more on earthly success.

I hear some screaming now so let me clarify that. By earthly, I don't mean worldly. I mean success here on earth doing God's will.

I think many trads are spiritually lazy and emotionally immature.

nctradcath · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2017, 08:58:50 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

Statistically, trad young adults are just as infected with 'the world' as any other young adult population. As atheism is growing, so a small % of trads will be infected with this and their Faith will become lax and they may stop going to church for a while. I've seen this more than a few times.

As the indult grows, a large % will leave tradition and attend this. At our chapel, we've lost about 70% of one generation to the indult. Young adults, who haven't read anything about V2 or the new mass, who only care about social media, get duped by the 'positive and happy' novus ordo-ites who think that "the latin mass is coming back! Everything's going to be rosy". Plus, the millenial generation cannot stand to be an "outsider" or "different", as they want to be "part of the group" just like on facebook. They compromise their faith because of human respect. ...Or they started dating novus ordo/indult catholics and didn't want to 'rock the boat' by trying to convert them to tradition. So they compromised and went to the indult, for love.

Then, there's the normal % of trads who have just given into a partying/fun life. They may still go to mass, but their faith is very weak. A good percentage of these will 'grow up' and become decent catholics at some point. But, some will not.

Finally, there are some who have kept the Faith, lived 'boring' lives, are looked at as 'old fashioned' and who have grown in virtue. These are small in number but they are a great example.

Really, aren't the above 4 categories consistant with the parable of the "Sower of the Seed"?

I think Pax Vobis is largely correct. The siren call of the world and the allure of the flesh and having fun will take a good number of trad children.

nctradcath · « **Reply #21 on:** February 10, 2017, 09:00:33 AM »

I think that these children are probably not educated well. Where else is Thier to go? The Truth must be followed as the alternative is hell.

Arvinger · « **Reply #22 on:** February 10, 2017, 10:12:59 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

Or they started dating novus ordo/indult catholics and didn't want to 'rock the boat' by trying to convert them to tradition. So they compromised and went to the indult, for love.

That is kind of catch 22. There are so few young Trad Catholics here in Western Europe (in the USA it is probably slightly better I guess) that chances of finding a spouse in a chapel are extremely slim. Exactly as Arsenius wrote in his post:

Quote from: Arsenius

Are we really down to the point where we literally have no choice of who to marry so we just have to marry the person sitting the next pew over for the sake of marrying "within the Faith"?

So, if young Trad Catholics will not look for a potential spouse in Novus Ordo or Indult they are likely to never marry and Traditional Catholics which eventually die out (here in Britain it seems already inevitable if you look at the age pyramid of our chapels). But if they do open up to Novus Ordo and Indult Catholics as potential spouses, they risk having to compromise their faith. I don't see an easy way out of this.

Pax Vobis · « **Reply #23 on:** February 10, 2017, 10:26:48 AM »

I'm not saying to avoid dating novus ordo-ites, but...(and i've had plenty of personal experience in this area)...trying to find one that will convert to tradition is just as hard as finding a trad to marry. Most novus ordo catholics are happy where they are; they don't want to have quarrels in their family; they don't want to be different; they want a 'normal' life. Also, the pope is like their god-given oracle, so they won't leave him.

The problem is, most younger folks are not strong in their faith, they don't have any strong convictions on why they're Trad to begin with (because they don't study the past), so to them, "the indult is a latin mass...what's wrong with that?" This is the easy way, which most take.

Arvinger · « **Reply #24 on:** February 10, 2017, 10:32:05 AM »

Quote from: Pax Vobis

I'm not saying to avoid dating novus ordo-ites, but...(and i've had plenty of personal experience in this area)...trying to find one that will convert to tradition is just as hard as finding a trad to marry. Most novus ordo catholics are happy where they are; they don't want to have quarrels in their family; they don't want to be different; they want a 'normal' life. Also, the pope is like their god-given oracle, so they won't leave him.

Exactly, this is why I wrote that dating Novus Ordo/Indult Catholic carries a risk of compromising one's faith. So:

a) if you try to marry within Tradition, you are likely to never find a spouse because there are so few Trad Catholic singles
b) if you try to marry Novus Ordo/Indult Catholic you are likely to compromise your faith and eventually blend into the Novus Ordo

Either way, Tradition is demographically doomed.

nctradcath · « **Reply #25 on:** February 10, 2017, 11:03:28 AM »

I see it as Our Lord's way to withdraw our hearts from the world and to focus solely on him and attaining heaven. Time in this vale is short and eternity is long.

nctradcath · « **Reply #26 on:** February 10, 2017, 11:07:43 AM »

I think what is missing in these discussions is a focus on the efficacy and utility of prayer.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #27 on:** February 10, 2017, 11:08:44 AM »

Quote from: Arsenius

Let me speak as a member of the "young generation". I've been around quite a bit of traditional chapels/parishes either as a regular attendee or attending once or twice on invitation or because I happened to be passing through town.

Resistance chapels are so small and unstable that I don't think a parish community could ever really arise from one in the current state of things. Think about for a second - Resistance chapels are so understaffed, you don't even have First Friday, First Saturday devotions, holy days of obligations are at random times and probably always low masses, Sunday mass is even irregular week to week, month to month. Here in America, you're probably putting yourself into a recusant situation if you are Resistance only. How on earth is a tightly knit community supposed to form in such an atmosphere, especially considering that a lot (most?) attendees also live great distances apart from each other and only congregate semi-regularly to attend mass?

Then there is the issue of the actual attendees. On my last trip to a Resistance chapel, I saw maybe 2 unmarried ladies, and 2 or 3 bachelors. Are we really down to the point where we literally have no choice of who to marry so we just have to marry the person sitting the next pew over for the sake of marrying "within the Faith"?

I found a virtuous, young lady at the Novus Ordo who I helped bring to tradition. She didn't know of the Latin Mass before meeting me and now attends SSPX regularly - she hasn't been back to the Novus Ordo for quite a while now.

I really think the older generation is partly at fault for creating such a suffocating and anti-social environment at many of these chapels. We are all infected with the spirit of the modern age simply by being born into it. It's no use pretending that our chapels are insulated from the spirit of the age. We must, obviously, resist it. We cannot, however, pretend that we are somehow protected from it within the confines of our chapels. This "us versus them" mentality has certainly not helped...

You and Matthew made very good points.

An excerpt from what I posted on the Suscipe forum:

Quote from: Kephapaulos

I think that the difficulty for both Catholic men and women in finding spouses has also to do with not being properly taught how to communicate properly with the opposite sex. Many grew up not being shown enough, and many others had to deal with broken families and so called families. Family discord can be a factor that can cause fear of marriage too.

It is not still the most common thing for people to meet online and have marriage eventually follow. Often it just does not work out. Most people would prefer the other party right there with them since being a distance from each other is just not the same.

Either men or women often have a set picture of what their spouse should be like, but we need to be open to being surprised at who we could meet too.

We should not altogether discount the possibility of meeting someone online though.

Kephapaulos · « **Reply #28 on:** February 10, 2017, 11:29:51 AM »

It all comes down to a lack of self-sacrifice on the part of both men and women today too.

Arvinger · « **Reply #29 on:** February 10, 2017, 11:32:35 AM »

Quote from: nctradcath

I see it as Our Lord's way to withdraw our hearts from the world and to focus solely on him and attaining heaven. Time in this vale is short and eternity is long.

You could well be right, but someone has to keep the Church going. If this goes on for few more generations, Traditional Catholicism will simply cease to exist - firstly, due to demography, secondly due to increasingly difficult conditions to survive. As my friend from the chapel who is married and has children says, she cannot imagine how her children will be able to raise their children (assuming they will find spouses, which is increasingly difficult) in Catholic faith.

This might be another sign that the Fatima/Akita chastisement and restoration are near - if they are not, Tradition will simply collapse and disappear within few generations.