Send CathInfo's owner Matthew a gift from his Amazon wish list:
https://www.amazon.com/hz/wishlist/ls/25M2B8RERL1UO

Poll

Simple Question: Does the OUM exist or has it died, defected or disappeared some time ago?

The OUM has completely died out and no longer exists.
0 (0%)
The OUM entirely defected and apostatized some time ago.
1 (6.3%)
The OUM may or may not exist, but it has disappeared and is invisible.
0 (0%)
The OUM continues in orthodox Catholic Bishops appointed by the Pope.
2 (12.5%)
The OUM can be found among Bishops without habitual ordinary jurisdiction.
6 (37.5%)
Other (please explain)
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?  (Read 9157 times)

0 Members and 5 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline forlorn

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 2519
  • Reputation: +1039/-1106
  • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The ordinary magisterium can err and it cannot err.  It depends on the situation and what is said and how it’s said.  You can’t make generalizations, as you are doing. It’s too complex.  
    To quote yourself, "That's a contradiction to the highest degree." If something can ever err, then saying it cannot err is factually incorrect. What you are failing to do is differentiate between the Ordinary Magisterium, the Ordinary Universal Magisterium, and the Extraordinary Magisterium. The first is fallible, the latter two are not.

    Now, to get back to the point which you missed entirely, Stubborn just lambasted me and basically accused me of heresy and insulting the Body of Christ for saying that the Ordinary Magisterium is fallible - when his entire (correct) argument just before that was that only a specific portion of the Magisterium is fallible. Throwing around insults because he can't see the contradictions in his own posts. 

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27458/-5070
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • It is in no way a contradiction. The teachings of the Pope are part of the Ordinary Magisterium, but they are not infallible unless they are ex cathedra. Therefore, the rest of it is fallible and can be wrong. So the Pope, and therefore the Ordinary(but not Universal) Magisterium can teach in error. It's fallible.  But it's infallibly safe in that you can never be guilty of sin for giving religious assent to the teachings of the Pope, even if they later turn out to be wrong.

    It's even slightly more than that.  Even if a non-infallible teaching on one matter or another might be mistaken with regard to some details, accepting it and submitting to it cannot harm or endanger one's faith in any substantial way.  So, for instance, let's say, for the sake of argument, that the Church had been wrong in condemning heliocentrism (cassini, don't come out guns a blazing, since I don't believe that the Church was wrong about that), would it have done any harm to one's faith to believe in geocentrism?  Of course not.

    Here's Msgr. Fenton regarding infallible safety (he's treating specifically of Encyclicals but the principles apply more broadly):
    Quote
    ...God has given the Holy Father a kind of infallibility distinct from the charism of doctrinal infallibility in the strict sense. He has so constructed and ordered the Church that those who follow the directives given to the entire kingdom of God on earth will never be brought into the position of ruining themselves spiritually through this obedience. Our Lord dwells within His Church in such a way that those who obey disciplinary and doctrinal directives of this society can never find themselves displeasing God through their adherence to the teachings and the commands given to the universal Church militant. Hence there can be no valid reason to discountenance even the non-infallible teaching authority of Christ’s vicar on earth.
    ...
    It is, of course, possible that the Church might come to modify its stand on some detail of teaching presented as non-infallible matter in a papal encyclical. The nature of the auctoritas providentiae doctrinalis within the Church is such, however, that this fallibility extends to questions of relatively minute detail or of particular application. The body of doctrine on the rights and duties of labor, on the Church and State, or on any other subject treated extensively in a series of papal letters directed to and normative for the entire Church militant could not be radically or completely erroneous. The infallible security Christ wills that His disciples should enjoy within His Church is utterly incompatible with such a possibility.


    Offline forlorn

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 2519
    • Reputation: +1039/-1106
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • that only a specific portion of the Magisterium is fallible.

    that only a specific portion of the Magisterium is infallible*.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27458/-5070
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!1
  • Stubborn just lambasted me and basically accused me of heresy and insulting the Body of Christ for saying that the Ordinary Magisterium is fallible - when his entire (correct) argument just before that was that only a specific portion of the Magisterium is fallible. Throwing around insults because he can't see the contradictions in his own posts.

    Stubborn has his own definition of Magisterium which excludes the non-infallible portions of Church teaching.  I've pointed out to him that it's a semantic disagreement and that he's not using the term Magisterium in the same way that most Catholic theologians do.  Within the authentic Magisterium, theolgians distinguish between the mere authenticuм ("merely authentic" = non-infallible) and then the infallible Magisterium.

    You are correct that most even Traditional Catholics don't make the proper distinctions between Ordinary (merely-authentic), Ordinary Universal, and Extraordinary.  In addition to that, sometimes you have the Pope speaking as a private doctor.

    I personally hold another category.  When the Pope writes a letter to a Bishop, which has happened many times, he is in fact teaching/instructing the bishop as Pope, in his official capacity, but he is not addressing a teaching to the Universal Church.  Or when he gives a speech to a group of midwives.  He is speaking to them as Pope, but the scope of his teaching is too narrow to make it strictly part of the Magisterium.  Or when he would give a sermon at Sunday Mass.  So that is a category somewhere between teaching as a private doctor and exercising Magisterium towards the Universal Church.

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27458/-5070
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Throwing around insults because he can't see the contradictions in his own posts.

    I had this battle with him for a long time, and I discovered, at long last, that he was not in fact contradicting himself, but, rather, defining terms differently than most Catholic theologians.  Non-infallible teachings made by the Pope that happen to be wrong he would say are not actually part of the Magisterium (as he defines it).


    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14720
    • Reputation: +6061/-905
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • You're the one who's been arguing that the Magisterium can be wrong. As you said so yourself, not even all the Bishops and the Pope being in agreement makes something infallible. It must always be something the Church has always taught. Therefore, by your own logic, the rest of the Ordinary Magisterium must be fallible. Stop flip-flopping.
    :facepalm:

    Try to tell the guy something and look what he says. How on God's green earth could you possibly come up with that from my posts?

    Just stop parroting that the Magisterium, being infallibly safe, can be wrong, but not too wrong! Such an amazing bit of theological wizadry on your part - and others.

    So now go ahead, you or anyone, and provide some examples of the Magisterium being wrong, and also when it is wrong "but it can't lead you into heresy or rejection of the faith".

    I know you're avoiding providing even a single example because it is an impossibility, but your pride must be stopping you from admitting it, but give it a shot any way.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14720
    • Reputation: +6061/-905
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Stubborn has his own definition of Magisterium which excludes the non-infallible portions of Church teaching.  I've pointed out to him that it's a semantic disagreement and that he's not using the term Magisterium in the same way that most Catholic theologians do.  Within the authentic Magisterium, theolgians distinguish between the mere authenticuм ("merely authentic" = non-infallible) and then the infallible Magisterium.

    You are correct that most even Traditional Catholics don't make the proper distinctions between Ordinary (merely-authentic), Ordinary Universal, and Extraordinary.  In addition to that, sometimes you have the Pope speaking as a private doctor.

    I personally hold another category.  When the Pope writes a letter to a Bishop, which has happened many times, he is in fact teaching/instructing the bishop as Pope, in his official capacity, but he is not addressing a teaching to the Universal Church.  Or when he gives a speech to a group of midwives.  He is speaking to them as Pope, but the scope of his teaching is too narrow to make it strictly part of the Magisterium.  Or when he would give a sermon at Sunday Mass.  So that is a category somewhere between teaching as a private doctor and exercising Magisterium towards the Universal Church.
    You  are the one who agrees with the whole false, necessary-for-the-NO idea of what the magisterium even is, I have already provided definitions from popes and theologians who reject the complicated, 19/20th century theologians'  idea of what it is.

    How about you trying to provide examples of the magisterium being wrong - but not wrong enough to lead one into heresy or cause the loss of faith.

    BTW, Fr. Fenton = one of the 19th/20th century theologians that helped get us into this mess.

    ETA: You are in the same boat as the OP re: the title of this thread. He cannot find the magisterium, neither can you - neither can anyone find it, if they believe the magisterium is as you, and Forlorn etc., and those certain 19th/20th century theologians define it.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14720
    • Reputation: +6061/-905
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • I had this battle with him for a long time, and I discovered, at long last, that he was not in fact contradicting himself, but, rather, defining terms differently than most Catholic theologians.  Non-infallible teachings made by the Pope that happen to be wrong he would say are not actually part of the Magisterium (as he defines it).
    The pope is not the magisterium. It is so obvious why you think he is, but he is not, neither is the hierarchy the magisterium. The magisterium is teachings, not people.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse


    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27458/-5070
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • The pope is not the magisterium. It is so obvious why you think he is, but he is not, neither is the hierarchy the magisterium. The magisterium is teachings, not people.

    Why would you think that I believe this when you were on the thread where I called out XavierSem for conflating the Magisterium with those who exercised it?  Magisterium, like the word "teaching" in English, can refer either to the ACT of teaching or to the things taught ... depending on whether you're considering the verbal noun subjectively or objectively.  But in no case does it mean the same thing as the teacher himself.

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14720
    • Reputation: +6061/-905
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Why would you think that I believe this when you were on the thread where I called out XavierSem for conflating the Magisterium with those who exercised it?  Magisterium, like the word "teaching" in English, can refer either to the ACT of teaching or to the things taught ... depending on whether you're considering the verbal noun subjectively or objectively.  But in no case does it mean the same thing as the teacher himself.
    Then go ahead and give an instance, or an example of the magisterium being wrong - and another example of it not being so wrong as to lead people into heresy or reject the faith.

    Go ahead.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Ladislaus

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 46600
    • Reputation: +27458/-5070
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  • Then go ahead and give an instance, or an example of the magisterium being wrong - and another example of it not being so wrong as to lead people into heresy or reject the faith.

    Go ahead.

    Stubborn, would you please stop this?  Based on the definitions of most theologians, it is YOU who hold that the Magisterium has been wrong.   You hold that Vatican II taught various errors to the Church, and so the teaching of Vatican II would qualify (in your mind) as erroneous Magisterium.  But you comeback is that the erroneous teaching of Vatican II is not actually Magisterium.  We've gone over this 100 times.  There's no theologian who would hold that the teaching of an Ecuмenical Council is not Magisterium.  Nobody defines the term as you do to the exclusion of all error.



    Offline Your Friend Colin

    • Full Member
    • ***
    • Posts: 516
    • Reputation: +241/-106
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0
  •   There's no theologian who would hold that the teaching of an Ecuмenical Council is not Magisterium.  
    Just for clarity (not trying to stoke the fire), what do you guys consider the Second Vatican Council to be?

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14720
    • Reputation: +6061/-905
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!0
  • Stubborn, would you please stop this?  Based on the definitions of most theologians, it is YOU who hold that the Magisterium has been wrong.   You hold that Vatican II taught various errors to the Church, and so the teaching of Vatican II would qualify (in your mind) as erroneous Magisterium.  But you comeback is that the erroneous teaching of Vatican II is not actually Magisterium.  We've gone over this 100 times.  There's no theologian who would hold that the teaching of an Ecuмenical Council is not Magisterium.  Nobody defines the term as you do to the exclusion of all error.
    No, it would not qualify as erroneous magisterium - the magisterium is always infallible. I've only said that probably a dozen times now. Because the magisterium is teachings of the Church, which means the magisterium is teachings of Christ. Pope Pius XII and Pope Pius IX - your "magisterium" - taught this as I quoted them.

    If you ever get that correct, you will cease with attributing me with making such ridiculous conclusions, ones which I have never made.

    Now you guys are the ones who insist the magisterium can be wrong, either admit such a thing is impossible, or do as I asked at least three times now - you quoted the question alright but ignored the question completely *again* - go ahead and give an instance, or an example of the magisterium being wrong - and another example of it not being so wrong as to lead people into heresy or reject the faith.

    Go ahead.
    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Offline Stubborn

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 14720
    • Reputation: +6061/-905
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!1
  • No Thanks!1
  • Just for clarity (not trying to stoke the fire), what do you guys consider the Second Vatican Council to be?
    It was a council of the Church that should have never been convened. It was a robber council, a counterfeit council. It was the birth of the Novus Ordo church with new doctrines, new liturgy and new anti-Catholic religion, even had it's own Pentecost, The "New Pentecost".

    "But Peter and the apostles answering, said: We ought to obey God, rather than men." - Acts 5:29

    The Highest Principle in the Church: "We are first of all under obedience to God, and only then under obedience to man" - Fr. Hesse

    Online Pax Vobis

    • Supporter
    • *****
    • Posts: 12109
    • Reputation: +7629/-2305
    • Gender: Male
  • Thanks!0
  • No Thanks!0

  • Quote
    But it's infallibly safe in that you can never be guilty of sin for giving religious assent to the teachings of the Pope, even if they later turn out to be wrong.
    If this were true, then the catholic laity are effectively robots and the hierarchy should be followed mindlessly and treated like walking oracles.  You fail to distinguish the different levels of magisterial teaching and the consequent different levels of assent the laity must give.