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Poll

Simple Question: Does the OUM exist or has it died, defected or disappeared some time ago?

The OUM has completely died out and no longer exists.
0 (0%)
The OUM entirely defected and apostatized some time ago.
1 (6.3%)
The OUM may or may not exist, but it has disappeared and is invisible.
0 (0%)
The OUM continues in orthodox Catholic Bishops appointed by the Pope.
2 (12.5%)
The OUM can be found among Bishops without habitual ordinary jurisdiction.
6 (37.5%)
Other (please explain)
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 12

Author Topic: Where Exactly is the Ordinary and Universal Magisterium of the Church Today?  (Read 14177 times)

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Offline Stubborn

  • Supporter
Sure, one can use the term "Conciliar Church" loosely, but the question is:  What is it?

Father Wathen agrees that whatever it is, it isn't the Catholic Church.
That's correct. And it is the new church with all it's new doctrines that arose from it's "new Pentecost" (V2) we see that have taken over the Catholic Churches nearly everywhere in the world.

In Pascendi, the pope warns they are hidden within the Church and as such, are all the more dangerous. One might think after reading that snip, that now that they are out in the open and are literally everywhere that they'd be somehow less dangerous, but the people followed the "infallible magisterium" - and even after 60 years of their abominations, still do.....because they believe LG 25, that whatever the pope/hierarchy teach, no matter how anti-Catholic, is infallible.

Right now, since the Holy See is vacant, the OUM is not being exercised.
"the Teaching Body as a whole could not die or fail."  Who are they?  Do you have names? 


Your poll choices demonstrate that you not only know nothing about the OUM and what it actually is, but also that you lack any understanding of the current crisis.  You believe that the mere existence of the OUM is all that matters, even if it has defected from teaching truth.
You have it exactly right.  XavierSem craftily edited W&S to hide the part that completely destroys his own position.

Quote
Art II. The Indefectibility of the Teaching Body is at the same time a condition and a consequence of the Indefectibility of the Church. A distinction must, however, be drawn between the Indefectibilty of the Head and the Indefectibility of the subordinate members. The individual who is the Head may die, but the authority of the Head does not die with him --- it is transmitted to his successor. On the other hand, the Teaching Body as a whole could not die or fail without irreparably destroying the continuity of authentic testimony. Again, the Pope's authority would not be injured if, when not exercising it (extra judicium), he professed a false doctrine, whereas the authenticity of the episcopal testimony would be destroyed if under any circuмstances the whole body fell into heresy.
(Wilhelm and Scannell, Vol 1, Book I, Part I, Ch II, Sect 14)

Also W&S have 2 definitions of Teaching Body.  One is the narrow sense meaning the ordinaries.  The other is a more general sense of the entire hierarchy consisting of all clerics.  They are using the general sense when discussing indefectibility.

You have it exactly right.  XavierSem craftily edited W&S to hide the part that completely destroys his own position.

Also W&S have 2 definitions of Teaching Body.  One is the narrow sense meaning the ordinaries.  The other is a more general sense of the entire hierarchy consisting of all clerics.  They are using the general sense when discussing indefectibility.
And who are the ordinaries that you recognize in the Church?  

Clemens Maria, you are mistaken. Those words you have bolded in, "On the other hand, the Teaching Body as a whole could not die or fail without irreparably destroying the continuity of authentic testimony." are clearly in the OP, as anyone can see. The part on the Pope dying is not the question here, though even it confirms that the Teaching Body cannot die. The question is on the Teaching Body.

I'm disappointed to see 5 people (poll result) have admitted to objective heresy. Teaching and Governing are merely aspects of the same Office. Without being appointed to Episcopal Office by the Pope, one cannot exercise Ordinary Jurisdiction or Ordinary teaching authority.

See the CE, for example: "It may be noted here that the Decree "Lamentabili sane", of 3 July, 1907, rejects (n. 52 sqq.) the doctrine that Christ did not desire to found a permanent, unchangeable Church endowed with authority. It is customary to speak of a threefold office of the Church: the office of teaching (prophetic office), the priestly office, and the pastoral office (governing office), also, therefore, of the threefold authority of the Church, that is, the teaching authority, ministerial authority, and ruling authority. Since, however, the teaching of the Church is authoritative, the teaching authority is traditionally included in the ruling authority; regularly, therefore, only the ministerial authority and the ruling authority are distinguished. By ministerial authority, which is conferred by an act of consecration, is meant the inward, and, because of its indelible character, permanent capacity to perform acts by which Divine grace is transmitted. By ruling authority, which is conferred by the Church (missio canonica, canonical mission), is understood the authority to guide and rule the Church of God." http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/08567a.htm It would be just as heretical to say Teaching Authority  can cease to exist in the Church as to say that Ruling or Governing Authority, i.e. Ordinary Jurisdiction conferred by the missio canonica, can cease to exist in the Church. Both are impossible, and the defense of either proposition as possible, is objectively heretical.

Just to give a few examples of orthodox Catholic Bishops or Cardinals who without doubt are legitimate Ordinaries, Cardinal Burke, Cardinal Sarah, Cardinal Ranjith, and say, Bishop Tobin (there was great news about the TLM returning to a parish in his diocese the other day, and the parish being saved from closure through the TLM! - see the other thread for that) who has promoted the TLM are some. I'm sure there are others.

There are 5350+ Ordinaries in the Catholic Church. It is among them, the diocesan Bishops, (not necessarily all) that the OUM of the Church continues. It cannot be any other way. To exercise Teaching Authority, as the CE plainly says, missio canonica is necessary. 

Please read the CE carefully, especially this part (1) "the teaching authority is traditionally included in the ruling authority" (2) "By ruling authority, which is conferred by the Church (missio canonica, canonical mission), is understood the authority to guide and rule the Church of God."